MOTO-NZ finally come up with something for all our money

[oneofsix]

"Ride to the conditions" we will be told. I can not get my Pilot 2's to let go in the wet. And that makes me very happy. So then I start to trust the tyres and become a little more brave... until in an unexpected spot I come across a new piece of tarseal that creates havock and makes me go sideways in the corner. But the biggest proble is that I did not bring spare undies...

there's the rub. Ride to the conditions is all well 'n' good if the rider has a hope 'n' hell of knowing what the conditions are. Only works if you have consistent road surface and it starts to rain or if other traffic arrives but if the road looks normal but doesn't provide the grip of a normal road then ...

[Swoop]

It seems that: ... An additional running light mounted on your helmet ... could well be on the way.

Just a running light? Why not a rotating amber beacon, like on forklifts?

Which retard is coming up with these ideas, and where does he live?

I raised with the NZTA some weeks ago the strips across the motorway. The NZTA said they were using a new more durable compound and it should become less slippery over time.

Hopefully NZTA will be amenable when insurance companies are directed their way, to recover costs associated with accidents caused by their application of this product?

[Genestho]

I raised with the NZTA some weeks ago the strips across the motorway. I commute each day on my motorbike and those are very tricky in the wet. The NZTA said they were using a new more durable compound and it should become less slippery over time. I'm yet to see the evidence of that!

Hi Mr Kiwi.

You seem to be the guy to ask - I'm quite keen to know if there's any updates with your group.

I was involved in the Pilot group in New Zealand, in WBOP for Motorcycle Safety, working directly with ACC/NZ Police.
As I left, the group became stake holders in consultation with NZTA.

In the time we were together we ran campaigns for scooterists and gear promotions, also Watch out for Motorcyclist campaigns.

We worked with various people in the local Motorcycling Industry to bring together motorcyclists concerns directly to NZTA.

We put together an event that saw over 1000 Motorcyclists, Motorcycle clubs, Top Racers speaking, ACC and NZTA together, braking demos, the event was well received and feedback from a lot of riders said they appreciated the event. We achieved quite a bit and things looked liked they were heading somewhere.

I walked away for personal reasons, I have no axe to grind with anyone, everyone did their best, good people.

Now, there is this ministry appointed group. In the time you've been together I'm sorry but I really can't see anything happening.

I am genuinely interested. What exactly is happening. Also, is there an update on the Coro Loop ride and the findings on that?

And can you please confirm if Gareth Morgan is still the head of this group.

Cheers

[Conquiztador]

Just a running light? Why not a rotating amber beacon, like on forklifts?

Which retard is coming up with these ideas, and where does he live?

They will very soon go full circle...

[MrKiwi]

Hi Mr Kiwi.

You seem to be the guy to ask - I'm quite keen to know if there's any updates with your group.

I was involved in the Pilot group in New Zealand, in WBOP for Motorcycle Safety, working directly with ACC/NZ Police.
As I left, the group became stake holders in consultation with NZTA.

In the time we were together we ran campaigns for scooterists and gear promotions, also Watch out for Motorcyclist campaigns.

We worked with various people in the local Motorcycling Industry to bring together motorcyclists concerns directly to NZTA.

We put together an event that saw over 1000 Motorcyclists, Motorcycle clubs, Top Racers speaking, ACC and NZTA together, braking demos, the event was well received and feedback from a lot of riders said they appreciated the event. We achieved quite a bit and things looked liked they were heading somewhere.

I walked away for personal reasons, I have no axe to grind with anyone, everyone did their best, good people.

Now, there is this ministry appointed group. In the time you've been together I'm sorry but I really can't see anything happening.

I am genuinely interested. What exactly is happening. Also, is there an update on the Coro Loop ride and the findings on that?

And can you please confirm if Gareth Morgan is still the head of this group.

Cheers

Hi, sorry I have not replied yet, will do so on Friday evening - am very busy with other matters at the moment.

Thought I would edit this post now that it is Friday night and I have moment to do your questions justice.

Yes Gareth has resigned from the Council, and while it isn't a secret we are expecting that the Minister will make a formal announcement shortly. Meanwhile, Deputy Chair, Paul Searancke is covering the Chair's duties, and he will continue to do so until a new Chair is appointed. All the other Council members listed on the website are current and active. I've discussed your post with Paul and he may also choose to reply to you.

This is the first Chair resignation from the Council, and it's taken ACC some time to develop a formal procedure for appointing a new Chair hence some delay in announcing the resignation. ACC has advised the Council that this procedure is in place now, so any future resignations from Council should be dealt with promptly. There will be a formal announcement in the media shortly about Gareth's resignation.

What is happening. The Chairman's update on the MotoNZ website had not been updated post Gareth's resignation as we were waiting for this to be formally announced. Eventually a less descriptive update was posted. We discussed on the Council our desire to make these both more detailed and more frequent. Servicing the website is through ACC.

Personally I'm conscious that to onlookers not a lot seems to have happened. However when the Council was formed there was considerable debate and discussion within the motorcycle community around the real cost of accidents with little shared view and considerable distrust from bikers of the ACC position. I was also of the view, based on previous work with the Crash Analysis System data on road accidents that there had not been much effort put into analysing what motorbikes accidents where happening, where and what the causal factors are. Again, anecdotally there are many views and opinions. As a council we agreed to spend most of last year getting a better understanding of the costs of accidents and what accidents where happening and why. This led to Gareth's articles on costs, the four part series put on the MotoNZ website earlier this year and also the broad analysis of accident causes. Understanding what accidents are happening and the frequency of these, along with what the causal factors are that contributed to the accidents is useful as it informs discussion on where to spend money to see if the poor accident trends can be reversed. None of us like paying the $30 levy, so if we have to pay lets see if we can focus where it is spent.

The news section of the MotoNZ website summarises some of our other work. The comments on the website are very brief and don't tell the full story but there are several areas where we are now focusing our attention, being:
- are there practical ways the conspicuity of bikes and riders can be improved - please note this is not about hi viz. It is about understanding why bikes are hard for others to see and what tools are there, if any, that could be made available to riders to use if they want to. We have commissioned a literature review of the science which is almost complete. This has taken longer than anticipated but the Council is of the view we want the review done carefully as the topic invokes a lot of discussion and debate, some informed and some based on opinions. We want to try and sort the facts from fiction.
- there are comments on the MotoNZ website about improving the design, construction and maintenance of roads, especially high use motorcycle routes, from a motorcyclist perspective
-we are interested in pushing the Authorities to further develop the design of road safety barriers that don't just work for cars, but must also work for motorcyclists. This initiative is one I am personally interested in and have been engaged in lots of discussions behind the scenes with some of my Council colleagues and with officials. It's slow and hard work but we are starting to gain some respect for our views. I have read the threads on this forum on wire rope barriers so am well versed on members views. There is some good information in those threads.
- We are interested in understanding the needs of scooter riders in urban settings to see if we can provide advice to road controlling authorities on practical measures to improve the safe passage for scooter riders.
- Behind the scenes are engaged in discussions with officials from ACC, NZTA and the Ministry of Transport to unashamedly lobby for motorcyclists and scooter riders, even though policy advocacy is not strictly in our terms of reference. However, these agencies know the Council exists and are keen to discuss safety initiatives.

What we as a Council have not been consistently good enough at is connecting with various rider communities on a regular basis. We have recently begun to discuss how we make this happen in a structured but easy to use way. Personally I have regularly come onto this forum to read the many varied views of members. I am a long time motorbike rider with an interest in transport safety and some professional experience in this field. However, it is impossible to be effective unless you can connect with fellow riders. I will respond to reasonable questions and am open to reasonable criticism and I am happy to agreed to disagree. I do, however, ignore the posts that are accusatory just because someone wants to rant and rave and call people names. It's sometimes amusing and sometimes sad but rarely affective.

You have asked me some direct questions, so I have tried briefly to provide you some answers. There is more I could say but will stop here for now. (and sorry for any disjointed logic in this post, I just learnt if you type for a long time your logon times out!)

[Genestho]

Hi, sorry I have not replied yet, will do so on Friday evening - am very busy with other matters at the moment.

Thought I would edit this post now that it is Friday night and I have moment to do your questions justice.

Yes Gareth has resigned from the Council, and while it isn't a secret we are expecting that the Minister will make a formal announcement shortly. Meanwhile, Deputy Chair, Paul Searancke is covering the Chair's duties, and he will continue to do so until a new Chair is appointed. All the other Council members listed on the website are current and active. I've discussed your post with Paul and he may also choose to reply to you.

This is the first Chair resignation from the Council, and it's taken ACC some time to develop a formal procedure for appointing a new Chair hence some delay in announcing the resignation. ACC has advised the Council that this procedure is in place now, so any future resignations from Council should be dealt with promptly. There will be a formal announcement in the media shortly about Gareth's resignation.

What is happening. The Chairman's update on the MotoNZ website had not been updated post Gareth's resignation as we were waiting for this to be formally announced. Eventually a less descriptive update was posted. We discussed on the Council our desire to make these both more detailed and more frequent. Servicing the website is through ACC.

Personally I'm conscious that to onlookers not a lot seems to have happened. However when the Council was formed there was considerable debate and discussion within the motorcycle community around the real cost of accidents with little shared view and considerable distrust from bikers of the ACC position. I was also of the view, based on previous work with the Crash Analysis System data on road accidents that there had not been much effort put into analysing what motorbikes accidents where happening, where and what the causal factors are. Again, anecdotally there are many views and opinions. As a council we agreed to spend most of last year getting a better understanding of the costs of accidents and what accidents where happening and why. This led to Gareth's articles on costs, the four part series put on the MotoNZ website earlier this year and also the broad analysis of accident causes. Understanding what accidents are happening and the frequency of these, along with what the causal factors are that contributed to the accidents is useful as it informs discussion on where to spend money to see if the poor accident trends can be reversed. None of us like paying the $30 levy, so if we have to pay lets see if we can focus where it is spent.

The news section of the MotoNZ website summarises some of our other work. The comments on the website are very brief and don't tell the full story but there are several areas where we are now focusing our attention, being:
- are there practical ways the conspicuity of bikes and riders can be improved - please note this is not about hi viz. It is about understanding why bikes are hard for others to see and what tools are there, if any, that could be made available to riders to use if they want to. We have commissioned a literature review of the science which is almost complete. This has taken longer than anticipated but the Council is of the view we want the review done carefully as the topic invokes a lot of discussion and debate, some informed and some based on opinions. We want to try and sort the facts from fiction.
- there are comments on the MotoNZ website about improving the design, construction and maintenance of roads, especially high use motorcycle routes, from a motorcyclist perspective
-we are interested in pushing the Authorities to further develop the design of road safety barriers that don't just work for cars, but must also work for motorcyclists. This initiative is one I am personally interested in and have been engaged in lots of discussions behind the scenes with some of my Council colleagues and with officials. It's slow and hard work but we are starting to gain some respect for our views. I have read the threads on this forum on wire rope barriers so am well versed on members views. There is some good information in those threads.
- We are interested in understanding the needs of scooter riders in urban settings to see if we can provide advice to road controlling authorities on practical measures to improve the safe passage for scooter riders.
- Behind the scenes are engaged in discussions with officials from ACC, NZTA and the Ministry of Transport to unashamedly lobby for motorcyclists and scooter riders, even though policy advocacy is not strictly in our terms of reference. However, these agencies know the Council exists and are keen to discuss safety initiatives.

What we as a Council have not been consistently good enough at is connecting with various rider communities on a regular basis. We have recently begun to discuss how we make this happen in a structured but easy to use way. Personally I have regularly come onto this forum to read the many varied views of members. I am a long time motorbike rider with an interest in transport safety and some professional experience in this field. However, it is impossible to be effective unless you can connect with fellow riders. I will respond to reasonable questions and am open to reasonable criticism and I am happy to agreed to disagree. I do, however, ignore the posts that are accusatory just because someone wants to rant and rave and call people names. It's sometimes amusing and sometimes sad but rarely affective.


You have asked me some direct questions, so I have tried briefly to provide you some answers. There is more I could say but will stop here for now. (and sorry for any disjointed logic in this post, I just learnt if you type for a long time your logon times out!)

Great thank you, I had seen your first reply but didn't realise you'd edited - only back here today with a coffee to reply to the first reply

Yes, I saw the press release regarding the resignation and can appreciate you not wanting to comment, until the announcement could be made public.

I understand the time it takes to set up shop, it just appeared that there's been a massive pause, considering the time this group has been together and I think it should be owed to Motorcyclists that they are connected with regularly, much more regularly than what's been happening.

Without being rude where you're at is is exactly where we were at, when I walked away and I additionally wondered if our model's been adopted? Interesting - not that it matters! Anyway...

Yes, there is a lot of mis-understanding and mis-information on here and I suppose this is the exact reason you have to find an efficient way to make sure information is regularly open, forth coming, factual and clear using a variety of ways and they need to know they're being listened to and more importantly widely consulted.

There's no point 'representing Motorcyclists' if there's none or, very little real time public consultations and interactions.. as example - the Coro Loop seems like over a year since the inception of the project..?

Anyway, good on you for fronting up!!

I wish you the best and thank you, for your time and reply

[biker baz]

Doesn't all get less slippery over time? And by getting more durable stuff it just makes that time take longer?
Definitely have to watch for them, especially when riding into the sun in wet conditions. Good plan to carry some polarised specs if that is a likely scenario.

Maybe some court action would get their attention & get some action. On the other hand why bother, They don't need our help to look incompetent. But one could go for a low speed slide (with witnesses & a helmet cam) & the insurance coy could do the sue & carry the inevitable legal costs.

[James Deuce]

Maybe some court action would get their attention & get some action. On the other hand why bother, They don't need our help to look incompetent. But one could go for a low speed slide (with witnesses & a helmet cam) & the insurance coy could do the sue & carry the inevitable legal costs.

Err no, that would be your fault for not riding to the conditions. Insurance companies are not your friend. They're not going to collude in something that will potentially cost them money. They'll just turn down your claim for being incompetent.

[Conquiztador]

Err no, that would be your fault for not riding to the conditions. Insurance companies are not your friend. They're not going to collude in something that will potentially cost them money. They'll just turn down your claim for being incompetent.

And the "Ride To The Conditions" stance will always be tricky to counter. As riders we know that we are riding to the conditions, but when there is diesel in a corner or the new slippery tar seal is applied the argument will be that the conditions were different just there and we should have adjusted our riding to suit. Pushing shit uphill over diesel tarseal comes to mind.

[biker baz]

To be fair it does say motorcycle visibility. While the small frontal area of a motorbike and rider is an obvious factor that might contribute to crashes like this it does not explain why drivers etc

You hit the nail on the head. Lights on & hi vis are cheap political quick fixes that have been proven not to work. eg daylights on got tossed out in Oz.
The real problem is not a quick fix & even has a name- motion camouflage. The principle is used by the military & animals/insects hunting for food. There has now been some research reluctantly done in relation to road safety, but has been ignored by legislators or tossed in the too hard basket.
Basically a small object that stays in the same relative position to a background is not consciously seen even though an observer is looking. It is only when the observer moves & changes the relativity to the background that the object is seen consciously.
To translate & bearing in mind ya can't fix stupid. Mr motorcycle approaches an intersection where a cager wants to turn right. Cager looks & thinks the road is clear. Cager starts to make turn, but because the relative position of Mr motorcycle has now changed, cager realises there is a vehicle about to plant it's front tyre through the window & reflex reaction is to apply the brakes.
However Mr Motorcycle has been to a rider training day where this very scenario has been discussed. On seeing the cager start to move he looks past the front of the cager & avoids an accident. A very loud horn applied early may help things but a single vertical digit shown to the cager may not. Doncha love a happy ending?
Unfortunately this is a commonly occurring scenario for both parties & looking to legislators for a solution will result in another dept dedicated to spending shitloads & making sure nothing happens. Like elephants mating - lots of noise & nothing happens for 2 years.
More resourceful riders overseas get good use of their 9mm. A good incentive to be really careful.

[newbould]

I have come across this magic tar seal that wears in with time, around the Otago Harbour. Ride / drive to the conditions is raised each and every time a bike or car ends up in the harbour after a little rain. Finally - after about 18 months this new seal does start providing adeqaute grip, and then seems to last a long time. But it absolutely is slippery before that. This is not helping improve road safety.

When riding the SR Escapade this year I was amused to read the sign between Lake Hawea and Lake Wanaka warning motorcyclists that this piece of road was a high accident area for riders. Right around the corner was a series of cheese wire barriers. But I had been warned I guess.

then on the West coast there were many reminders to overseas travellers that we drive on the left. Great. A campervan coming round the corner on my side of the road is a real fear. But why put the arrows on a bend. Wet white paint is slippery. Put them on a straight. Simple.

[newbould]

You hit the nail on the head. Lights on & hi vis are cheap political quick fixes that have been proven not to work. eg daylights on got tossed out in Oz.
The real problem is not a quick fix & even has a name- motion camouflage. The principle is used by the military & animals/insects hunting for food. There has now been some research reluctantly done in relation to road safety, but has been ignored by legislators or tossed in the too hard basket.
Basically a small object that stays in the same relative position to a background is not consciously seen even though an observer is looking. It is only when the observer moves & changes the relativity to the background that the object is seen consciously.
To translate & bearing in mind ya can't fix stupid. Mr motorcycle approaches an intersection where a cager wants to turn right. Cager looks & thinks the road is clear. Cager starts to make turn, but because the relative position of Mr motorcycle has now changed, cager realises there is a vehicle about to plant it's front tyre through the window & reflex reaction is to apply the brakes.
However Mr Motorcycle has been to a rider training day where this very scenario has been discussed. On seeing the cager start to move he looks past the front of the cager & avoids an accident. A very loud horn applied early may help things but a single vertical digit shown to the cager may not. Doncha love a happy ending?
Unfortunately this is a commonly occurring scenario for both parties & looking to legislators for a solution will result in another dept dedicated to spending shitloads & making sure nothing happens. Like elephants mating - lots of noise & nothing happens for 2 years.
More resourceful riders overseas get good use of their 9mm. A good incentive to be really careful.

SMIDSY and SMIDSY avoidence techniques

[Ocean1]

And the "Ride To The Conditions" stance will always be tricky to counter.

There used to be a truck, fitted with wheels & tires on a frame amidships. These wheels could be turned like any normal front wheels and were set at a slight angle to the truck's centreline. The frame measured and recorded lateral load. It's a simple rig that tests the road surface friction coefficient on the fly, at or close to normal speed.

May be something like that in service but I haven't seen that particular one for years. If you had it in operation 40 hrs a week you could collect data from maybe 2000km of road. More inteligent scheduling would see any stretch with a hint of accident history surveyed within a week of an accident.

Anyone see a problem with such a scheme?

Edit: other than it doesn't fit with the above spending avoidance non-policy.

[newbould]

Anyone see a problem with such a scheme?

Edit: other than it doesn't fit with the above spending avoidance non-policy.

Nope. better than the police car skid test i've seen on tv shows

[MrKiwi]

You hit the nail on the head. Lights on & hi vis are cheap political quick fixes that have been proven not to work. eg daylights on got tossed out in Oz.
The real problem is not a quick fix & even has a name- motion camouflage. The principle is used by the military & animals/insects hunting for food. There has now been some research reluctantly done in relation to road safety, but has been ignored by legislators or tossed in the too hard basket.
Basically a small object that stays in the same relative position to a background is not consciously seen even though an observer is looking. It is only when the observer moves & changes the relativity to the background that the object is seen consciously.
To translate & bearing in mind ya can't fix stupid. Mr motorcycle approaches an intersection where a cager wants to turn right. Cager looks & thinks the road is clear. Cager starts to make turn, but because the relative position of Mr motorcycle has now changed, cager realises there is a vehicle about to plant it's front tyre through the window & reflex reaction is to apply the brakes.
However Mr Motorcycle has been to a rider training day where this very scenario has been discussed. On seeing the cager start to move he looks past the front of the cager & avoids an accident. A very loud horn applied early may help things but a single vertical digit shown to the cager may not. Doncha love a happy ending?
Unfortunately this is a commonly occurring scenario for both parties & looking to legislators for a solution will result in another dept dedicated to spending shitloads & making sure nothing happens. Like elephants mating - lots of noise & nothing happens for 2 years.
More resourceful riders overseas get good use of their 9mm. A good incentive to be really careful.

I agree with your comment about Hi Viz being seen as a quick political fix (in other countries) but I do not agree with lights on being a quick political fix, there are genuine safety reasons for lights on.

I've seen the articles on the military analysis and use for training pilots of motion camouflage, and have circulated these to my colleagues on MSAC. It's a challenging area to apply to the road, but one we should examine to see if something practical (and useful) might come of it.