MOTO-NZ finally come up with something for all our money

[Zedder]

There are three ways of learning, by observation, by reading or by learning the fire is hot by touching it... still, I agree, there's a bit of money in the pot now. I'd have thought there should've been visible MotoNZ campaigns afoot by now, particularly in the summer season.

Training also involves acquiring concepts and attitudes G.

[Zedder]

Such as? [/QUOTE]

Give me $30 per ripped off biker and I'll tell you.

[Genestho]

Training also involves acquiring concepts and attitudes G.

That's what I'ma sayin' too, those that need to touch the fire to feel its heat, will never make good trainee's, ow!

[Subike]

More intensive training of motorcyclist would defiantly drop the incident rate,
But not because of the fact that riders would be better trained.
Rather the fact there would be less riders due to the cost being something many would see as the final thing to not make the choice to ride in the first place.
Yes, training is wonderful, but young Kiwi's would rather spend $300 on a car license, than $3000 on a bike license.
No mater what way it is put, Bike riding is heading for extinction, just as horse riding on public roads did 100 years ago.

[swbarnett]

But that's the point! There's little evidence to show that 'training' actually improves safety!

So then why do we have a driver's license at all? If training is pointless why do we care about the skill level of our drivers and riders?

So there's no point in introducing a new, 'improved', training regime unless it's built on a very sound basis.

If it's simply machine control skills then that might achieve very little positive result and might even have a negative impact due to over-confidence . . .

This has been said publicly by one of our top cops (I forget who). The training I'm talking about would involve machine control, yes. But it would go much further. Into attitude adjustment and a sense of one's own fragility. I know from my own history that the theory evening that I attended as part of my voluntary basic rider training did that for me. One of the few pictures I will never forget is that of the after effect of a jandle slicing a foot in half along the bone.

What do you call 'properly'?

See above.

[swbarnett]

Yes, training is wonderful, but young Kiwi's would rather spend $300 on a car license, than $3000 on a bike license.

Why do we have to treat motorcycles separately? We need intensive, attitude adjusting, training for ALL drivers and riders. And the cost must be kept the same no matter what type of vehicle. Afterall, the most important part of the training has nothing to do with what you happen to be operating at the time.

No mater what way it is put, Bike riding is heading for extinction, just as horse riding on public roads did 100 years ago.

Just wait until it's prohibitively expensive to run a car because of petrol prices. The motorcycle manufacturers will start selling much more efficient motorcycles and they'll make a comeback.

[James Deuce]

Just wait until it's prohibitively expensive to run a car because of petrol prices. The motorcycle manufacturers will start selling much more efficient motorcycles and they'll make a comeback.

Cars will be replaced with "telecommuting", public transport, and villages focused on a particular industry, not motorcycles.

[swbarnett]

Cars will be replaced with "telecommuting", public transport, and villages focused on a particular industry, not motorcycles.

I agree except for a couple of points:

1. Villages focused on a particular industry won't work unless every member of every family in that village is in the same industry.

2. Motorcycles will be part of the solution. There will always be those jobs that can't be done by tele-commuting (try picking up the rubbish over the phone)

Also, a point my wife just brought up, if we do go to single industry villages there will still be a long transition period where cars are too expensive and public transport can't cope with the demand. Fuel efficient motorcycles will be a large part of the solution in the interim.

[James Deuce]

I agree except for a couple of points:

1. Villages focused on a particular industry won't work unless every member of every family in that village is in the same industry.

2. Motorcycles will be part of the solution. There will always be those jobs that can't be done by tele-commuting (try picking up the rubbish over the phone)

Also, a point my wife just brought up, if we do go to single industry villages there will still be a long transition period where cars are too expensive and public transport can't cope with the demand. Fuel efficient motorcycles will be a large part of the solution in the interim.

I don't agree. I don't think people have quite cottoned on to the level that their lifestyle is going to change to over the next 50 years. Globalisation has had a detrimental effect both economically and ecologically and we are going to have to stop transporting food and goods so far. Personal transport won't factor into a society that doesn't need it.

Cars will be too expensive and public transport will cope because I think population growth has peaked in developed countries and the technologies to do the same for the developing world are being taken up quicker than some religious leaders would have us believe. As harsh as it sounds I think we're on the verge of infrastructural collapse within 96 hours at any given time and we only need one event for the population to go into freefall fairly rapidly - public transport becomes moot at that point, however, even doing it in managed way is going to cause a lot of pain and people's options will be initially restricted quite harshly. But it IS going to have to happen. To improve the quality of living of the bulk of the world, the "Western" economies are going to have to take a big hit. Or we just keep going the way we are and eat ourselves and have to start from scratch again, is the species survives.

A village of rubbish collectors is quite possible, along with the service equipment to manage rubbish collection and process garbage over a particular area - the permutations are quite extensive and eminently logical. I think we'll end up looking like we are living a semi-rural village lifestyle, managed by guilds, but with an information dissemination infrastructure that largely eliminates the need to travel vast differences. I think you'll find that bicycles become very expensive one day, because the industrial effort required to produce a modern pushie is enormous. Again, not sustainable.

[Berries]

1. Villages focused on a particular industry won't work unless every member of every family in that village is in the same industry.

You should go and have a look at Milton. They are on the way to this particular nirvana already.

[GrayWolf]

So then why do we have a driver's license at all? If training is pointless why do we care about the skill level of our drivers and riders?


This has been said publicly by one of our top cops (I forget who). The training I'm talking about would involve machine control, yes. But it would go much further. Into attitude adjustment and a sense of one's own fragility. I know from my own history that the theory evening that I attended as part of my voluntary basic rider training did that for me. One of the few pictures I will never forget is that of the after effect of a jandle slicing a foot in half along the bone.


See above.

Yes that does work.. on the first night of my 'advanced' training (RAC/ACU) The instructor had an industrial (benchtop) belt sander with 1grit?? (BIG grit) Swtiched it on, lifted a piece of Pork up and showed us, then 'jammed' it onto the belt for about 3-4 seconds and then simply lifted it again said " This is you at 50mph without a proper jacket (leather mostly back then) I do not want to see, and will not allow ANYONE to ride in the group without one". The amount of meat removed and the 'spray' from the sander was quite a graphic demonstration of high speed gravel rash. I've never forgotten it I can assure you.

[bogan]

I don't agree. I don't think people have quite cottoned on to the level that their lifestyle is going to change to over the next 50 years. Globalisation has had a detrimental effect both economically and ecologically and we are going to have to stop transporting food and goods so far. Personal transport won't factor into a society that doesn't need it.

Cars will be too expensive and public transport will cope because I think population growth has peaked in developed countries and the technologies to do the same for the developing world are being taken up quicker than some religious leaders would have us believe. As harsh as it sounds I think we're on the verge of infrastructural collapse within 96 hours at any given time and we only need one event for the population to go into freefall fairly rapidly - public transport becomes moot at that point, however, even doing it in managed way is going to cause a lot of pain and people's options will be initially restricted quite harshly. But it IS going to have to happen. To improve the quality of living of the bulk of the world, the "Western" economies are going to have to take a big hit. Or we just keep going the way we are and eat ourselves and have to start from scratch again, is the species survives.

A village of rubbish collectors is quite possible, along with the service equipment to manage rubbish collection and process garbage over a particular area - the permutations are quite extensive and eminently logical. I think we'll end up looking like we are living a semi-rural village lifestyle, managed by guilds, but with an information dissemination infrastructure that largely eliminates the need to travel vast differences. I think you'll find that bicycles become very expensive one day, because the industrial effort required to produce a modern pushie is enormous. Again, not sustainable.

Dude, what have you been smoking? There's plenty more resources to exploit once petrol gets too expensive. Consumers, politicians, scientists, engineers will not allow the shortage of one resource to completely rearrange our lives. There a far greater chance of nuclear war ending with mutually assured destruction than there is of a bicycle becoming too expensive.
And here I thought your 'motorcycling is doomed' posts in the other thread were ungrounded... this shit just kicks it up (or down is possibly more appropriate) a notch

[davereid]

Dude, what have you been smoking? There's plenty more resources to exploit once petrol gets too expensive. Consumers, politicians, scientists, engineers will not allow the shortage of one resource to completely rearrange our lives. There a far greater chance of nuclear war ending with mutually assured destruction than there is of a bicycle becoming too expensive.
And here I thought your 'motorcycling is doomed' posts in the other thread were ungrounded... this shit just kicks it up (or down is possibly more appropriate) a notch

NZ has adequate coal reserves to manufacture petrol for hundred of years to come, albeit at a current price of around $5 a litre.

We can always steal the poor mans food and turn it into biofuels for around the same cost.

The world first fusion reactor has now run several times, and as it burns one of the most common elements in the world, in almost perfect safety, it offers much promise for future electricity generation, although with a bit of work NZ possibly has hydro resources available.

Electric vehicles are hamstrung only by battery technology. But super capacitors and other battery developments may cure that, or if electricity is plentiful the hydrogen fuel cell may be viable.

We aren't back to the horse and cart just yet.

[SuperMac]

Yes that does work.. on the first night of my 'advanced' training (RAC/ACU) The instructor had an industrial (benchtop) belt sander with 1grit?? (BIG grit) Swtiched it on, lifted a piece of Pork up and showed us, then 'jammed' it onto the belt for about 3-4 seconds and then simply lifted it again said " This is you at 50mph without a proper jacket (leather mostly back then) I do not want to see, and will not allow ANYONE to ride in the group without one". The amount of meat removed and the 'spray' from the sander was quite a graphic demonstration of high speed gravel rash. I've never forgotten it I can assure you.

I used to teach with RAC/ACU and the subsequent BMF-RTS.

One of the 'props' I had was a lump of tarmac, chunky grit included. I'd ask "Who doesn't wear gloves?" Typically a few hands would go up. Then pick the meanest looking geezer, and ask him to put his hand, palm up, on the desk. "Why?" he would ask.

My answer "Because I'm going to hit it as hard as I can with this lump of tarmac" would usually result in me being told to 'go away'. So I'd ask what's the difference between 'tarmac hitting hand' and 'hand hitting road'? Result: dawning realisation.

[bogan]

I used to teach with RAC/ACU and the subsequent BMF-RTS.

One of the 'props' I had was a lump of tarmac, chunky grit included. I'd ask "Who doesn't wear gloves?" Typically a few hands would go up. Then pick the meanest looking geezer, and ask him to put his hand, palm up, on the desk. "Why?" he would ask.

My answer "Because I'm going to hit it as hard as I can with this lump of tarmac" would usually result in me being told to 'go away'. So I'd ask what's the difference between 'tarmac hitting hand' and 'hand hitting road'? Result: dawning realisation.

So how many people would would let you smash a gloved hand?