Why work? A couple from the UK asks

[007XX]

Rainman posted an RSA talk on time-banking last year, maybe the year before. It was very interesting and instantly appealing. However someone needs to value the effort and what is more valuable, the binman who keeps the place tidy or the doctor who fixes people... given that if no one wants to be a binman because you don't get enough time, then you better hope you have enough doctors to tidy up the mess that that leaves behind. At the end of the day it's still a form of currency and open to abuse and open to creating social divide. We're not just trying to replace the financial system, we're trying to offer human beings the chance to become what they can as well as doing the shit that needs doing. More of a values shift instead of swapping one reward model for another where the end result is still the same. Work is work and if I self train I'll have earned 0 hours, yet someone who trains officially will be given hours for their training. I have issues with time-banking, granted not as many as with time-banking, but I fail to see the need for a half way house when we could just go the hole hog and do it right from the outset.

I'm confused.

What I read about the time-banking was that time was time. Whether you spent two hours fixing a computer or two hours cleaning a house, it didn't matter. Two hours was the currency.

So anytime someone is looking for a service, any kind of service, it could be swapped time for time.

That seemed pretty fair and straight forward to me.


And the need for a half way house is because you are literally talking matter of factly about deconstructing society as people have known it for hundreds of years.
I like your enthusiasm, but as much as you'd like to make it sound a piece of piss, it is going to need some easing into.

Also, seeing how well a concept like time- banking works will be a good test for your opinion that people can truly do away with the greed factor of money exchange for service.

Personally, I'm going to keep an eye on it, as I have been doing since I found out about it a month or so ago.

[Edbear]

And then sends them straight back into the same environment? Nah, that's not enough. It's easy to say yup and nope when it cuts time off of a potential sentence and then go straight back to it. After all isn't that what a parole hearing is for? and yet people still re-offend? Not bagging the idea, but I have a hard time accepting that it would work as well as you may think. Hang on, that sounds vaguely familiar ... although changing what they go back to along with what you suggest may yield better results .



They hold all of the keys (pun intended). They run the oversight departments that are supposed to protect the public from the private sector. Who else are people supposed to turn to when the govt tell them to fuck off, it's not their problem? the ever stretched and diminishing services that provide that form of help?



Yes there are those who are waiting to be handed some form of lifeline. But measuring those people by "our" yardstick? From you? Gotta say I'm a tad disappointed... and given the "moron" in question is looking for some form of work and may well have been doing so for a long time, potentially having been given many knockbacks because he's being perceived as a "moron helps? fuckin triffic. It's hardly surprising that human beings go nowhere where that attitude lives on. Maybe the KB member in question coulda offered his services to help the guy? Nah, much easier to look down on him as a lazy fucker eh.

Whilst I understand why some people would look at someone else and say I'm surprised you can tie your shoes, it fucks me off that they're written off, it truly does. So much easier to ignore the issue than to do what's necessary because one feels that it's a waste of time. Sounds like the kind of logic that ends with services being cut coz there's just no helping some people, best just pull the plug. Human beings, just FUCKIN AWESOME ...

You read too much negative into my post. There are some very good rehab programs available and should be used more to re-educate offenders. They should be compulsory.

The loser in question was typical of the type, of which there are far too many. He expects others to hand him everything on a plate without him having to do annoying to help himself. I suggest you spend some time in WINZ as an observer and talk to the staff. Not all are like him, some are genuinely interested in getting a job.

NZ's welfare state has bred generations of dependants who have never had to face reality and think for themselves or take responsibility for their own lives. Criminals have been slapped with wet bus tickets for years. Note the maximum punishments for the crime as opposed to the actual sentences handed down.

[mashman]

I'm confused.

What I read about the time-banking was that time was time. Whether you spent two hours fixing a computer or two hours cleaning a house, it didn't matter. Two hours was the currency.

So anytime someone is looking for a service, any kind of service, it could be swapped time for time.

That seemed pretty fair and straight forward to me.


And the need for a half way house is because you are literally talking matter of factly about deconstructing society as people have known it for hundreds of years.
I like your enthusiasm, but as much as you'd like to make it sound a piece of piss, it is going to need some easing into.

Also, seeing how well a concept like time- banking works will be a good test for your opinion that people can truly do away with the greed factor of money exchange for service.

Personally, I'm going to keep an eye on it, as I have been doing since I found out about it a month or so ago.

Don't get me wrong, time-banking looks like an interesting idea, it really does and if you've had a little look see, perhaps we can do a quid pro quo Clarice, ffffffffffffffffffff.

How much time does a can of beans cost, or an iFart, or a car, or a house etc...? If I am at home 24/7 looking after my infirmed child, am I going to receive 24 hours payment? If I get 20 mates and we form a work party, but actually don't do any work, will those hours be logged? In that we sign-off each others "work". How do I get ahead? Why wouldn't I stretch a 6 month job out to a year? What if someone is unskilled and is do shoddy work, I have still worked, do I still get my time? Do kids earn time at school so that they can get stuff or do adults give them their hours (like pocket money)? Do I earn time when I'm on holiday? If I am injured, do I accrue sick time? Why would I want to become a doctor if I receive the same time as a cleaner? Can you guarantee me that time will not become subject to some form of "inflation" is time-banking administered?

I'm sure you can see that I have quite a few questions regarding time-banking and it may be that you don't have those answers. Yet I'm sure you can see where I'm going with the questions above. I see time-banking as replacing one set of problems for another.

You will also be deconstructing society as people have known it for hundreds of years.
I like your enthusiasm, but as much as you'd like to make it sound a piece of piss, it is going to need some easing into.



I agree that for either system there would need to be some easing. However, in both cases all you're doing is removing the perception of money and replacing it with nothing (NOW) or with a flat rate of pay (communism j/k, time-banking). It's not a great leap of the imagination to get rid of the financial system where nothing else changes immediately and only "human nature" becomes the only real consideration. Where as alluded to earlier, time-banking brings in its own issues and also has to content with "human nature", after all, if it's in our nature it won't change, right? Right person right job, build to the best standards we have, be truly agile in regards to resource management etc...
Why not just do it "right" to start with?

[bogan]

I'm confused.

What I read about the time-banking was that time was time. Whether you spent two hours fixing a computer or two hours cleaning a house, it didn't matter. Two hours was the currency.

So anytime someone is looking for a service, any kind of service, it could be swapped time for time.

That seemed pretty fair and straight forward to me.

But the need to continue to have a money system alongside it will make it fail; as there will then be a time/money transfer rate, and people will see that if they work for money, sometimes they will be better off.

[mashman]

You read too much negative into my post. There are some very good rehab programs available and should be used more to re-educate offenders. They should be compulsory.

The loser in question was typical of the type, of which there are far too many. He expects others to hand him everything on a plate without him having to do annoying to help himself. I suggest you spend some time in WINZ as an observer and talk to the staff. Not all are like him, some are genuinely interested in getting a job.

NZ's welfare state has bred generations of dependants who have never had to face reality and think for themselves or take responsibility for their own lives. Criminals have been slapped with wet bus tickets for years. Note the maximum punishments for the crime as opposed to the actual sentences handed down.

I didn't think the post was that negative... in fact I seem to remember agreeing with you, at the start . And again I agree that these programs can be very beneficial for those who are at that stage where they are ready to "evolve"... but instead of making them compulsory and in light that there only ever seem to be a growing number of "that type", these programs are consistently being seen as a waste of money. Probably on the basis that "that type" are the ones who frequent them. It's a disappointing attitude. After all, aren't "us" supposed to be the "evolved" ones? We're cutting people loose and kicking them on the way out the door whilst giving them the hard word to shape up or forever be known as the pariah of society. Sorry if that sounds negative, but that's exactly what we're doing and straight back into the environment from whence they came.

I spent 6 years living amongst "that type" Ed. I'm sure I'd get an unbiased view from WINZ staff who get to see 1/100th of what the person is really like . Sure I had issues with some of their antics, still do to a degree, but I also realise that looking down on "that type" serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever... they're human beings. Plenty of them would like to get on and do in their own way, but they're not toeing the line and are therefore judged by "our" standards as being lesser human beings. I dare say that "that type" have thought through their prospects similarly to the couple in the OP... and given that there are a finite number of jobs, there's always going to be, at best, a revolving unemployed population picking up the scraps. Hell if one of them became a good programmer it could see me out of a job if they work cheaper than me. It's not outwith the realms of possibility at all as "that type" aren't completely stupid.

It's not the welfare state that's the problem. I'm still yet to have anyone give me a concrete argument for that being the case. In fact it sounds more like bullshit propaganda to me. If there were better paying jobs, I reckon most of these guys would be in there working hard. But there aren't, there are just jobs that pay next to nothing over and above that which they could earn whilst on the dole (that isn't just receiving benefits, as these people do "work" too). There are finite jobs Ed. Read the last paragraph of the OP where the Minister says approx 1:5. That's not 5 people applying for every job, that's 1 job for every 5 people. So go ahead and tell me again that ALL of these people should go out and get a job. THERE AREN'T ENOUGH JOBS, FACT, let alone well paying ones. The financial system has to go or the perceived dependency that you talk about will continue to grow as more people are replaced by automation etc... "That type" are taking responsibility for their lives, just not in the way you, or society, expects them to. Criminals cost money to house, so it's cheaper to have them out of jail than in jail, and as money is king why wouldn't you hand down a wet bus ticket to save the country money? However I am with you in regards to punishment to a degree, but where it's a "crime" to rip someone off, it's generally a financial crime and victimless (that last bit contains a wee bit o sarcasm).

"Our" attitude is shit from top to bottom and "that type" are the scapegoats. And it does fuckin annoy me that we seem to be unable to do anything about it because it costs too much money. Uber fail blaming the state for that.

[_Shrek_]

Why the hell did they ever get rid of the p.e.p. schemes of the 80,s, that was a great idea I thought. I learnt quite a bit on the one I did when I was on the dole for a little while back then, at least we were out working, the wage was not the best but better than the dole.

aye was a good scheme it gave me the start to dairy farming & into not bad coin, just the hrs sucked

while we will surivive, it's still gutting when you're working 80+ hrs per week just to find some lazy %#*( sitting on the dole earning as much as you & doing nothing

[Zedder]

I came across this website about the Local Exchange Trading Systems:http://www.lets-linkup.com/080-All%20About%20LETS.htm

[Edbear]

aye was a good scheme it gave me the start to dairy farming & into not bad coin, just the hrs sucked

while we will surivive, it's still gutting when you're working 80+ hrs per week just to find some lazy %#*( sitting on the dole earning as much as you & doing nothing

I also was on the scheme back in early 1980. It was fun and I felt I was doing something worthwhile.

I came across this website about the Local Exchange Trading Systems:http://www.lets-linkup.com/080-All%20About%20LETS.htm

Good link! It is a shame though, that there are so many who simply can't be bothered.

Mashman, a lot of what you say is correct, but it is getting people to accept they have to do it for themselves and not think the world owes them a living and that the Govt. should give them everything they need that is the problem.

I am unemployable, I mean, who is going to employ a 54 year old with no formal qualifications higher than College, (though I've been running businesses for years), with a chronic illness and severe physical limitations for my cleared 20hrs per week, knowing I will be unreliable on a day to day basis. "Sorry, I've got to take some drugs and lie down now." "Sorry I can't come in today."

My options were to give up and vegetate, live off my wife plus the wee pittance WINZ could give me, ($40pw!), or be creative. While convalescing from the accident I revived my old business from the '90's, just starting to put a few things on TM and developing a website.

I was flat broke and sick and in pain but made the effort and did what I could with determination. (and drugs... Love the drugs!) After two years we are doing well and I can work according to my limitations.

I was brought up in the era where if a person wanted something, he/she worked for it. It was a pride thing not to go on the benefit and one simply did whatever was available. I started earning for myself at 11 years old, mowing lawns. I pushed my Dad's old mower around the streets to the lawns I cut for a dollar.

When we were first married, my wife walked 2km each way to work evenings as a waitress, and has contributed to the family ever since. In her late 40's she got her Teaching Diploma to improve her earning ability and though it was hard for her she was determined to achieve it and can be proud of herself, as I am of her.

Yeah, I know what the naysayers will respond with, but the point is I'm not alone and I know many older members here will have similar stories to tell. Bottom line is that it is attitude that makes the difference. Yes, "jobs" are not readily found, but "work" is there for those who want it and are inclined to find it.

[_Shrek_]

I also was on the scheme back in early 1980. It was fun and I felt I was doing something worthwhile.
Yeah, I know what the naysayers will respond with, but the point is I'm not alone and I know many older members here will have similar stories to tell. Bottom line is that it is attitude that makes the difference. Yes, "jobs" are not readily found, but "work" is there for those who want it and are inclined to find it.

I think that scheme helped alot of us keep our heads above water, & with leaving school after 6 months third form, (I knew better) I've done alot of different kinds of work, but with the help of a good woman over the last 28 years I learned to read & gained 3 national certs, now we have a small business that we work together in, not making large amounts of $$$ but it's a good life style & we enjoy what we do together.... aye we found the work now we have jobs

[Zedder]

[QUOTE=Edbear;1130492185]I also was on the scheme back in early 1980. It was fun and I felt I was doing something worthwhile.



Good link! It is a shame though, that there are so many who simply can't be bothered.

The fact that it's still around means some people can be bothered Ed. It's obviously not for everyone currently and as always, the market decides.

[Edbear]

I think that scheme helped alot of us keep our heads above water, & with leaving school after 6 months third form, (I knew better) I've done alot of different kinds of work, but with the help of a good woman over the last 28 years I learned to read & gained 3 national certs, now we have a small business that we work together in, not making large amounts of $$$ but it's a good life style & we enjoy what we do together.... aye we found the work now we have jobs

Another close family member was disadvantaged similarly, though different circumstances. He was determined to better himself, and learned to read and write and now runs his own business and is doing well.

[QUOTE=Zedder;1130492204]

I also was on the scheme back in early 1980. It was fun and I felt I was doing something worthwhile.



Good link! It is a shame though, that there are so many who simply can't be bothered.

The fact that it's still around means some people can be bothered Ed. It's obviously not for everyone currently and as always, the market decides.

A lot are, and a lot of young people are working hard to be self-supporting, too. I'm encouraged when I see interviews of schoolkids with dreams and aspirations and a good work ethic, and teachers encouraging them that they can succeed.

[mashman]

I came across this website about the Local Exchange Trading Systems:http://www.lets-linkup.com/080-All%20About%20LETS.htm

Sounds a lot like time banking from what I've read. Similar solution with similar issues and as with time-banking, not mainstream enough that the benefits can be realised. Tin foil hat says that that's all down to the banks, economists and blokes in the shadows.

Mashman, a lot of what you say is correct, but it is getting people to accept they have to do it for themselves and not think the world owes them a living and that the Govt. should give them everything they need that is the problem.

I am unemployable, I mean, who is going to employ a 54 year old with no formal qualifications higher than College, (though I've been running businesses for years), with a chronic illness and severe physical limitations for my cleared 20hrs per week, knowing I will be unreliable on a day to day basis. "Sorry, I've got to take some drugs and lie down now." "Sorry I can't come in today."

My options were to give up and vegetate, live off my wife plus the wee pittance WINZ could give me, ($40pw!), or be creative. While convalescing from the accident I revived my old business from the '90's, just starting to put a few things on TM and developing a website.

I was flat broke and sick and in pain but made the effort and did what I could with determination. (and drugs... Love the drugs!) After two years we are doing well and I can work according to my limitations.

I was brought up in the era where if a person wanted something, he/she worked for it. It was a pride thing not to go on the benefit and one simply did whatever was available. I started earning for myself at 11 years old, mowing lawns. I pushed my Dad's old mower around the streets to the lawns I cut for a dollar.

When we were first married, my wife walked 2km each way to work evenings as a waitress, and has contributed to the family ever since. In her late 40's she got her Teaching Diploma to improve her earning ability and though it was hard for her she was determined to achieve it and can be proud of herself, as I am of her.

Yeah, I know what the naysayers will respond with, but the point is I'm not alone and I know many older members here will have similar stories to tell. Bottom line is that it is attitude that makes the difference. Yes, "jobs" are not readily found, but "work" is there for those who want it and are inclined to find it.

I too agree with a lot of what you're saying, but you're missing a fundamental issue there and labelling people as useless coz they won't help themselves. I do think that they won't help themselves at all. I'm sure some can't and I'm very sure that some just don't want to. Where some of the posters here have had goals etc... that's the one thing that hasn't been taken into account in regards to "that type". Perhaps they just don't have those goals. Sure that may be because they're negative in their outlook or simply can't be driven to force themselves into something they won't enjoy. there's much more than just lazy people out there and from what I've seen they're anything but idle/lazy. Yes they can get money off of the state and top it up with other "work", but that's what happens when the jobs aren't there.

I'm sure it's wonderful to be driven, to have a goal/purpose etc... but not all of us do. I didn't until several years ago. Quite a few of the guys I went to school with were the same, we just simply didn't know what we wanted to do. However as you say there was work around and some of use helped build houses, asked if the local hotel wanted benches stripped and recoated, worked in the vege shop, grunted at the boatyard, provided general cover for illness etc... but that sort of work isn't overly available these days, primarily because that kind of work has been filled by the grafter who goes looking for it. After that there aren't many legal ways of making money.

The working world has changed and those guys are slipping through the crack due to a number of circumstances. Those circumstances need to change if you want "that type" to change their attitude towards work. Otherwise you're just demanding that they measure up to your standards and play by unrealistic rules. It ain't all one way traffic mate and our rules just aren't flexible enough. Took my 37 years to figure out what I want to be doing, it'll take me almost another 10 to get to the stage where I'd have qualifications and experience enough to then go out and compete with the younger, cheaper generation for limited jobs. In the meantime my family suffers the financial consequences. It's fucked up at best and I'm not one to shirk work. We don't all mature like you, we don't all have your beliefs, we don't all have your goals, we don't all fit into the little societal model that we call normal life. It needs to change. One of Shrek's comments sums it up well "with leaving school after 6 months third form, (I knew better)", "that type" know better also, but there's no reason for them to make that effort.

I think that scheme helped alot of us keep our heads above water, & with leaving school after 6 months third form, (I knew better) I've done alot of different kinds of work, but with the help of a good woman over the last 28 years I learned to read & gained 3 national certs, now we have a small business that we work together in, not making large amounts of $$$ but it's a good life style & we enjoy what we do together.... aye we found the work now we have jobs

Congrats man (and just to make this abundandtly clear I mean that sincerely without sarcasm etc...). Might I ask why you didn't do what you've accomplished earlier?

[Edbear]

I think we are agreeing more than disagreeing. Certainly attitudes need changing and that is the key. The saying goes, "It is attitude more than aptitude that determines altitude."

There are many who lack self-belief and self-worth who need to know they can do whatever they want, that they don't have to be "smart" or well educated or get a "good job." Supplying the tools is one thing, letting the person know he can use them or learn to use them is the other.

I told my kids that it is perfectly normal not to know what they wanted in life, or wanted to pursue, the important thing was that they did something in the meantime regardless. As we get older and more expreienced we gradually work out where we want to go and change our vocation and re-educate accordingly. Nothing worth while comes easy or quick and we need to appreciate that it will take time and effort to get where we want to go. However we need reassurance that by putting in said time and effort, we CAN achieve our goals, from wherever we started, be it a silver spoon or a wooden one.

A lot of the world's millionnaires started with nothing and no education, but they had a determination and a belief in themselves that let them overcome reversal and disappointment and keep going. "These types" may benefit from counselling in self-worth as a lack of opportunity can be soul destroying if it goes on too long. Too many people are also too quick to tell us we can't do something, or will never succeed. These poeple need to be told politely to shut up!

[unstuck]

99% of it is what you make of it, so if your life sux, you sux.

Suicidal Tendencies......

[unstuck]

I think we are agreeing more than disagreeing. Certainly attitudes need changing and that is the key. The saying goes, "It is attitude more than aptitude that determines altitude."

There are many who lack self-belief and self-worth who need to know they can do whatever they want, that they don't have to be "smart" or well educated or get a "good job." Supplying the tools is one thing, letting the person know he can use them or learn to use them is the other.

I told my kids that it is perfectly normal not to know what they wanted in life, or wanted to pursue, the important thing was that they did something in the meantime regardless. As we get older and more expreienced we gradually work out where we want to go and change our vocation and re-educate accordingly. Nothing worth while comes easy or quick and we need to appreciate that it will take time and effort to get where we want to go. However we need reassurance that by putting in said time and effort, we CAN achieve our goals, from wherever we started, be it a silver spoon or a wooden one.

A lot of the world's millionnaires started with nothing and no education, but they had a determination and a belief in themselves that let them overcome reversal and disappointment and keep going. "These types" may benefit from counselling in self-worth as a lack of opportunity can be soul destroying if it goes on too long. Too many people are also too quick to tell us we can't do something, or will never succeed. These poeple need to be told politely to shut up!

Spot on there Ed.