UK - Slave work schemes

[Ocean1]

That assumes that you are better than them and get them before they get you ... I would not put my money on you ...

A couple of times I've failed to prevent thieves making off with my stuff, true, but my batting average so far suggests you could do worse. On the other hand if someone with a good case simply asked if they could have my TV they'd have a much better chance of actually getting it. It's happened once already.

Are you really prepared to kill ??? Do you really think so ???

Dunno, never had to, like most people I try to organise my life so the chance of having to do so is pretty slim. If pressed I suspect I'd give it a damned good nudge.

[Ocean1]

Not quite mutual, remember who the aggressor is, it aint mr sleepy. Also remember that most of those that sleep with a gun under their pillow but end up losing are killed with their own gun.

Still a damed sight fewer than thieves, though.

You presume a reasonable living wage but the thread is about working for nothing, the state feeding the profits of the businesses instead of ensuring the survival of its citizens so more than a TV is at steak for the invader, it is steal or die. If you are goign to die by not stealing why not risk having to kill someone you blame for killing you and your friends? Not a way I would want to live but obviously some people think that forcing others to starve and calling on the police for free protection is the way to go.

Actually the thread is about asking those already getting a free lunch to earn some of it. So the choice isn't quite starve or kill to eat, is it? It's work for your lunch or go hungry. You can decide to kill someone anyway, but lets not pretend you haven't already had shitloads of opportunities to avoid that choice.

[mashman]

Indeed, any help the productive members of society need to maintain their hard earned assets should be freely available from your suitably armed local policeman.

Wrong. It's simply not politically expedient.

What fulla on TV? He must live in there, out here the only hard working Kiwis I've met anywhere near the a poverty line are professional charity workers. Whatever, I can tell you he's not only factually challenged but I've a sneeking suspicion you'll find he's firstly a failure and secondly one of the noisy minority that's happier blaming others for his failure.

What are you going to do... station a police officer at every house?

PC or not, all they have to do is attend the odd interview to circumvent the rules, or at least set up the odd interview and purposefully fuck it up.

He were a very well off comedian. Some people don't stop thinking just because they have money.

And you wonder why you don't sleep ??? All that shit floating around in your body ???

Once a week/fortnight and I generally sleep very well with a belly full of grease tyvm.

[mashman]

That's a 'mutual' question, is the person 'invading' the house to steal also prepared to kill? it's all very well to say you would, but if killing was THAT easy??? All it means is those who work and earn a living/reasonable wage, will, just like the USA, sleep with a pistol by the bed/under the pillow... So you the 'stealer' have to be prepared to risk dying to steal the 40 inch plasma, jewellery, etc..... Again, how many people are REALLY prepared to risk dying in that circumstance?

A mate of mine had his house broken into the other night. Some techy bits n pieces gone, along with the car. You sure you're going to be awake when they getcha

[Banditbandit]

What are you going to do... station a police officer at every house?

Yeah ... Great Idea ... creates lots of jobs ... (as long as you don't expect them to work for free ...)

Can I please have a policewoman insted of a police man? This one ... those legs will keep my neck warm ...

[davereid]

Actually the thread is about asking those already getting a free lunch to earn some of it.

I grew up when every factory had a help wanted sign.

And pretty much we had full employment, only a handful would have been on the dole.

I think it shows that if the jobs are there, virtually everyone will find their way into employment.

But most of the western world has lost its way.

We have kept prosperity for many by using virtual slave labour. Instead of going to foreign lands, and bringing people in chains to work our lands, we use border control to keep them as low wage slaves in their own lands.

The catch is, that those in our own country who used to make those T shirts, work as process workers, or factory hands, are now not required, as the foreign slave labour is cheaper.

So we put them on the scrap heap.

Its easy to blame them for not having a job, and that's what we are doing. But its a mess we created, and kicking the bloke who is down won't fix it.

The solution isn't easy, and it will lower the standard of living for those who are still in the workforce - that's why we don't do it.

(1) Lower age of retirement. This takes the old guy out of the work force, and puts the young guy in. And its essentially fiscally neutral, as the dole and super or of similar value, but the old guy is likely on higher wages than the new chap. And old guys seem to manage on the OAP without wander around stealing raping and robbing.

(2) Bring back penal time. Many employers work current staff hard rather than take on new staff. Penal rates work two fold, giving better paid to the skilled who simply must work, while encouraging employers to take on new staff.

(3) Simplify compliance. Make it easy and safe for employers to take on new staff and grow their businesses.

(4) Accept that some people have limited skills. Use tariffs to create some protected industries to ensure there are financially viable industries for those with minimal skills to move into.

NZ is now stuck with 3rd and 4th generation beneficiaries. Many simply wont have any interest in getting back into the work force. Once a job is available for everyone who wants one, THEN its time to bring back the stick.

But in the mean time, we are flogging an already dispirited horse.

[oneofsix]

Actually the thread is about asking those already getting a free lunch to earn some of it. So the choice isn't quite starve or kill to eat, is it? It's work for your lunch or go hungry. You can decide to kill someone anyway, but lets not pretend you haven't already had shitloads of opportunities to avoid that choice.

Most would love to have work but as you say they are already getting a free lunch so why work as well? If there is work there then pay them to work and stop sucking on the tit of the welfare system (you wont understand that), the people you want to work for free would rather not be on welfare. So if their choice is work to be called a welfare freeloader, no increase in status or selfworth, why not become a crim, at least crims get more respect, if you become a big enough crim you can call yourself a business man or politician.
If every job currently available in NZ was filled their would still be a boat load of unemployed and a lot of those employed still would not be able to afford to live so what opportunities? You indicate you have an opportunity to avoid the need to kill, what are you doing with it? Hoarding it?

[Ocean1]

NZ is now stuck with 3rd and 4th generation beneficiaries. Many simply wont have any interest in getting back into the work force. Once a job is available for everyone who wants one, THEN its time to bring back the stick.

But in the mean time, we are flogging an already dispirited horse.

Can't disagree with much of that. But I'll say that if you're the age I think then your golden age was based on exactly the effect your low wage economies have on us here, now: New Zealand produced stuff cheaper and better than the UK, so much so that we beat not only their product prices but their tariffs. I don't recall too many Kiwis complaining that they were slave labour for the UK market then, and I don't think many third world labourers would complain about an income that beats the shit out of what they had before their current job. The world is indeed changing, but, then, it always has.

As for an interest in going back to work? A wee excercise: compare the average Kiwi's lifestyle from those years to one on a low wage now. Our grandparents would have seen todays unemployed benefit as extremely generous, better than most of them managed to earn.

Solutions 2, 3 should be obvious. They're certainly obvious enough to the productive private sector.
4 is an option. It's just a differtent way of linking some form of minimum effort with an agreed minimum reward. Can't argue.

No 1 isn't anywhere near fiscally neutral. All of the older professionals I know my age earn far more for the economy than any combination of younger alternatives. Gen X and Y simply don't cut it, they've got little idea of that nescessary link between effort and reward. They won't when the old fuckers eventually do go, either, but in the meantime the tax take from those oldies remains one of the largest income streams for feeding both those that can't do so and those that don't.

[Ocean1]

Most would love to have work but as you say they are already getting a free lunch so why work as well?

My father was eligable for the dole, over a period of several months.

He never collected it. Would have been ashamed to have done so. Strangely, we survived.

[oneofsix]

My father was eligable for the dole, over a period of several months.

He never collected it. Would have been ashamed to have done so. Strangely, we survived.

Bugger only several months, pity he didn't try it for several years Then again he probably also tried it at a better time than now in a more caring society than the one you represent.

[davereid]

All of the older professionals I know my age earn far more for the economy than any combination of younger alternatives. Gen X and Y simply don't cut it, they've got little idea of that nescessary link between effort and reward. They won't when the old fuckers eventually do go, either, but in the meantime the tax take from those oldies remains one of the largest income streams for feeding both those that can't do so and those that don't.

Sadly you are right.

It took only a few months from pushing the GO button for the mosquito, for old engineers to get the first one in the air. Two months later they were in mass production.

Its taken 5 years and $38 million for Novapay to go from concept to err not working concept.

The get-on-and-do-it machine is broken. Possibly irrecoverably.

But not all older workers are professionals.

We need to bring the young into our world of employment, work, productivity and prosperity. If we don't, they will surely involve us in their world, of hopelessness, violence, poverty and crime.

[oneofsix]

We need to bring the young into our world of employment, work, productivity and prosperity. If we don't, they will surely involve us in their world, of hopelessness, violence, poverty and crime.

Well said sir.

(Normal transmission will resume shortly)

[Ocean1]

We need to bring the young into our world of employment, work, productivity and prosperity. If we don't, they will surely involve us in their world, of hopelessness, violence, poverty and crime.

My wife had a nifty wee bit of doggerel: Don’t sweat the small stuff!

Used to drive me bloody crazy, because of course the small stuff grows. It grows until you can be bothered behaving like a parent, providing your kids with boundaries and guidelines.

Just because you’ve left it late enough that the consequences are somewhat higher than making them stand in the corner doesn’t mean you get to shrug your shoulders and say “Oh well, I tried.”

[Ocean1]

But not all older workers are professionals.

Thought I'd left this lying around here somewhere...

Wiki:
Baby Boomers control over 80% of personal financial assets and more than 50% of discretionary spending power., July 2011 They are responsible for more than half of all consumer spending, buy 77% of all prescription drugs, 61% of OTC medication and 80% of all leisure travel.

[davereid]

Thought I'd left this lying around here somewhere...

Wiki:
Baby Boomers control over 80% of personal financial assets and more than 50% of discretionary spending power., July 2011 They are responsible for more than half of all consumer spending, buy 77% of all prescription drugs, 61% of OTC medication and 80% of all leisure travel.

Yes.ts the baby boomer that controls those assets that is the biggest barrier to change. He simply doesn't want to have a lower standrd of living so that others may participate in a productive society.

Trouble is, I don't want to be that baby boomer, trying to quietly enjoy my retirement, while the youth that the governments of my generation have trashed get up to all the things that troubled youth get up to.

We need to actually develop a way out, not just continue to fund those the system has failed to remain failed.