The fascist regime that made you a moron: Thanks dJonkey

[mashman]

No they certainly arnt ,its the beauty of Democracy!
But at some point the ideal gets lost & politics step in. That & money & Human instinct....

http://www.idea.int/vt/compulsory_voting.cfm doesnt seem to be the answer according to this so I might give up on that one.

Pretty much given up on what can be done with the World as such, but Im passionate about my country & we should be doing all we can to keep it here and not in foreign financial hands.And that the Govt. & its Depts are not fucking corrupt or breaking the Law. Or changing Laws that could effect our civil rights.
Do an Iceland. Weve got a better climate for a start. What are they going to do....threaten us with a WMD? Or just amp up the Weekly Media Drivel .That'd also have the bonus of lowering the dollar....

BrandNZ. Clean & Sustainable.

heh, democracy. The ultimate in irony. We know that they're ripping us off, yet we vote for it and then defend them.

Meh, it really isn't required anyway

I know what needs to be done with the world. So do TPTB... but alas there's no money in it innit. Doing an Iceland could be fun. We'd probably be penalised in some way under some stupid WTO guideline.

Ahhh yes, brand NZ. I believe a few have done that recently, a bad place to do business, a great place to buy cheap utilities and land etc...

[Oscar]

heh, democracy. The ultimate in irony. We know that they're ripping us off, yet we vote for it and then defend them.

Could you get any more arrogant or condescending toward the average voter?
You must be so special.

However, you don't vote, so as usual, you're talking bollox.
So what gives you the right to speak for "us" (the poor downtrodden voter who you look down your nose at)?
"We" don't have the benefits of your tinfoil chapeau or apparent heavy drug habit.

[Usarka]

Not sure how you got from me being OK for domestic "spying" with clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants; to chipping people, cognitive recalibration (whatever that is) and chemical sterilisation.

Serious? The GCSB had clear rules and oversight, and they ignored them.

[BoristheBiter]

Serious? The GCSB had clear rules and oversight, and they ignored them.

Yes and no.
Yes they spied on NZ residents/citizen and they are not allowed to do that, unless asked by the SIS or police, for which they had been.
But they can't do that as they are NZ residents/citizen's, but they can as they were asked by the SIS/police.

This happened because the laws that Labour put it place when they were last in power had holes you could drive a bus through, so all they are doing is fixing the holes.

Nothing will change other than they will now need a court signed warrant.

[mashman]

Could you get any more arrogant or condescending toward the average voter?
You must be so special.

However, you don't vote, so as usual, you're talking bollox.
So what gives you the right to speak for "us" (the poor downtrodden voter who you look down your nose at)?
"We" don't have the benefits of your tinfoil chapeau or apparent heavy drug habit.

I could, yes. Are you an average voter?
Really? Or you could be missing the point.

Exceptional criteria you have there for allowing people to have an opinion on how ineffective their elected, bwaaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa, representatives seem to be. Carry in voting, there's a good chap and just sit back and bask in the glory days by remembering the days that you used to fight for what was right.
You must be one of "them" then. So please exclude yourself from the "us" that I quoted. Those who identify with the "us", will identify with the "us". Not looking down my nose at anyone, but am certainly sticking my fingers up at "them".
Sorry, that's your problem... although you could open your eyes (I know for a fact that that is possible) and you could well hammer the fuckin shit out of illegal substances like I don't. In both cases you're holding yourself back.

[Usarka]

Yes they spied on NZ residents/citizen and they are not allowed to do that, unless asked by the SIS or police, for which they had been.
But they can't do that as they are NZ residents/citizen's, but they can as they were asked by the SIS/police.

This happened because the laws that Labour put it place when they were last in power had holes you could drive a bus through, so all they are doing is fixing the holes.

Why isn't the issue. They knew spying on citizens isn't legal and they chose to ignore it. That bit wasn't hard to work out, and even if it was ambiguous I'm sure our top spy agency could figure out how to clarify things.

The alternative is that they're incompetent. I don't like either scenario.

[paturoa]

Serious? The GCSB had clear rules and oversight, and they ignored them.

My recollection of what I've read lately, is that the legal opinions that they got when the law changed, said what they were doing was OK when it was at the request of other agencies with appropriate warrants.

Can you please refer me to the references / facts for that assertion that said spying was done without a warrant.

Is your position that you want no spying what so ever?

So again, with clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants .....

btw I don't believe that there is currently enough, and to be honest I don't trust to pollies and the lobby to deliver either.

[Usarka]

My recollection of what I've read lately, is that the legal opinions that they got when the law changed, said what they were doing was OK when it was at the request of other agencies with appropriate warrants.

Can you please refer me to the references / facts for that assertion that said spying was done without a warrant.

Is your position that you want no spying what so ever?

So again, with clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants .....

btw I don't believe that there is currently enough, and to be honest I don't trust to pollies and the lobby to deliver either.

Sigh. Two can play at that game. Can you please refer me to the references / facts for that assertion that "the legal opinions that they got when the law changed, said what they were doing was OK when it was at the request of other agencies with appropriate warrants" and that appropriate warrants were got.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Serious? The GCSB had clear rules and oversight, and they ignored them.

Yup, then when caught with their hand down djonkeys trousers (who hasthe FBI's and the RIAA's hand up his arse all the way to the eyebrows) they changed the law to make what they did legal.

Don't worry, its only a shower.

[HenryDorsetCase]

My recollection of what I've read lately, is that the legal opinions that they got when the law changed, said what they were doing was OK when it was at the request of other agencies with appropriate warrants.

Can you please refer me to the references / facts for that assertion that said spying was done without a warrant.

Is your position that you want no spying what so ever?

So again, with clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants .....

btw I don't believe that there is currently enough, and to be honest I don't trust to pollies and the lobby to deliver either.

I dont think that is right. the key issue here is the fucked up warrant (which in my view should invalidate ANY legal case against the New Zealander of the year: in the US there is a doctrine called the fruit of the poisoned tree which should apply here.) But leaving that aside, they've decided to change the lor anyway. If it was only the warrant, then there would be no need to "clarify" the status of the SIS and po po and the GCSB would there?

[Oscar]

I could, yes. Are you an average voter?
Really? Or you could be missing the point.

Exceptional criteria you have there for allowing people to have an opinion on how ineffective their elected, bwaaaaa ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa, representatives seem to be. Carry in voting, there's a good chap and just sit back and bask in the glory days by remembering the days that you used to fight for what was right.
You must be one of "them" then. So please exclude yourself from the "us" that I quoted. Those who identify with the "us", will identify with the "us". Not looking down my nose at anyone, but am certainly sticking my fingers up at "them".
Sorry, that's your problem... although you could open your eyes (I know for a fact that that is possible) and you could well hammer the fuckin shit out of illegal substances like I don't. In both cases you're holding yourself back.

Missing the point?
That's pretty rich. By definition your "point" should be concise and informative.
You don't have a point though, you just blather in conspiratorial generalities about how "they" are ripping us off or how "our" votes are ineffective.

Why don't you try some intellectual rigor - when you express an opinion, why don't you either use the first person singular, or actually tell us who "we" are.
Instead of making half arsed generalisations like some hippy undergrad trying to impress the girls, like - "We know that they're ripping us off, yet we vote for it and then defend them.", how about some facts?

In conclusion, if you really don't indulge in mind altering substances, that's quite sad, because if you were hitting the crack pipe it would explain your blather.
If it ain't drugs, I guess you're just another sad crackpot.

[paturoa]

Sigh.

I was first!

but anyway

But at that time the advice he had from both the GCSB and the domestic spy agency Security Intelligence Service (SIS) legal team was that they believed "it was absolutely legally correct what they were doing".

Your turn.

And I'm after a reference that told them at the time that it was illegal. Not a current one.

I'm still in the same place, with clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants it is OK.

[paturoa]

I dont think that is right. the key issue here is the fucked up warrant (which in my view should invalidate ANY legal case against the New Zealander of the year: in the US there is a doctrine called the fruit of the poisoned tree which should apply here.) But leaving that aside, they've decided to change the lor anyway. If it was only the warrant, then there would be no need to "clarify" the status of the SIS and po po and the GCSB would there?

Agree, there has not been suitable / sufficent clear rules, oversight, transparency and warrants.

Same question then applies for me, do we trust out pollies et al to front with them?

[mashman]

Missing the point?
That's pretty rich. By definition your "point" should be concise and informative.
You don't have a point though, you just blather in conspiratorial generalities about how "they" are ripping us off or how "our" votes are ineffective.

Why don't you try some intellectual rigor - when you express an opinion, why don't you either use the first person singular, or actually tell us who "we" are.
Instead of making half arsed generalisations like some hippy undergrad trying to impress the girls, like - "We know that they're ripping us off, yet we vote for it and then defend them.", how about some facts?

In conclusion, if you really don't indulge in mind altering substances, that's quite sad, because if you were hitting the crack pipe it would explain your blather.
If it ain't drugs, I guess you're just another sad crackpot.

@intellectual rigor... Yup. You've missed the point entirely.

[Oscar]

@intellectual rigor... Yup. You've missed the point entirely.

Nope, pretty sure that was a bullseye.
You'd rather use smilies than your words, and Dog help us if you actually posted anything specific...