ANZACs and war and stuff

[Edbear]

There are three things that Science has no explanantion, or even theory for.

A/ How and why the Big Bang started.

B/ Life arising from non-life. Yes they have three theories but none of them work.

C/ Human consciousness and thought. As banditbandit said, we can measure the physical effects, but cannot explain why and how.

This has some relevance to the thread topic in that only Man has the concepts of war, nationalism, racism, or segregation beyond the physical need for survival. Only Man has the concept of honour, sacrifice and altruism.

With Mankind's history, you would wonder why he is still so keen on warring amongst his own people and own kind, when you witness the willingnes to sacrifice himself for the saving of others with no sense of reward.

[bogan]

(And don't anyone suggest Zen and art of motorcycle maintenance .. that has bugger all to do with Zen ..)

... and even less to do with motorcycles

[Akzle]

That was not what I was suggesting at all ... but what I meant is a whole philosophy course ... maybe if you read something like Dogen's Shobogenzo ...

http://www.amazon.com/Shobogenzo-Zen...rds=shobogenzo

meh, thats on the same reading list as the last thing you suggested i read...
feel free to post me your copy though...

how is it we have the capacity to philosophise, how is it we have consciousness?
personally, i'm not one for accepting what's written down ("believe in the scriptures") - what if, by some twisted happenstance, humanity was destroyed and it were only my writings that survived for the next species?
to rely on scripture, however old and however enlightened, doesn't sit with me.

consciousness cannot come from nothing, (to my mind) so consciousness has to come from consciousness, and, to my mind, that can be called god, the source, the creator etc.

now, given that everything is of god, everything is god, a bit rasta... jah and jah and i and i.
so. i am god, as a metaphor: the knowledge of god is written into my DNA.

"Canot [imagination ] just arise as a result of the interactions within this universe (whatever and where-ever that might be)?"
no, i don't believe it can. or rather, i believe all interactions are the same thing - god.

There are three things that Science has no explanantion, or even theory for.

there are a stack of things modern science doesn't have an answer for. like: "what is fire?" using science (or the lack thereof) as an argument is... scientific.

only Man has the concepts of war, nationalism, racism, or segregation beyond the physical need for survival. Only Man has the concept of honour, sacrifice and altruism.

war, nationalism and racism yes. everything else, no. i think you'll find there is a lot more to "animal" societies than you'd at first observe.

[SPman]

While ANZAC Day can be a time to reflect on the futility of war it is primarily an opportunity to show thanks to those who made the sacrifice to protect the freedom we enjoy today - without questioning their motivations for doing so.

To most of them - the sacrifice was unintentional!

Ursaka Not sure the old cunts would want people to be debating politics etc on anzac day instead of paying respect to those who served and those who died.

On the contrary - most old soldiers I talked to were more than happy to get stuck into politicians on Anzac day - and how the hell you stop the arseholes winding up populations to get involved in wars in the first place.

We will remember them.

My radio keeps telling me that we should learn from the lessons of the past. For some reason they seem to be afraid to enunciate exactly what those lessons are. I wonder why... Perhaps the idea that the sacrifices made by so many during WWI were in fact futile and led to the slaughter of WWII is hard to swallow.

Our family remember them all through the year, the Grandparents generation's brothers, fiances and friends senselessly killed, the Uncles, Grandparents and Parents who came back severely wounded in body or mind, the cousins who went to Vietnam and came back....altered..estranged..... -
I am "lucky" in having the collected letters and diaries of 2 great uncles killed in WW1, 1 served from Aug 1914 to Aug 1918, when he was killed, winning various medals along the way. In 1914, it was all gung ho fun and adventure - by late 1917, the tone had changed to bitterness and total disillusionment - to the extent of telling "the people back home, including his older brother," NOT to enlist, stay at home, just stay away from the hell hole! Dad was severely wounded in the Islands in WW2, his brother served in Africa and Italy, and came back a changed man. In WW2 there were 2 or 3 who were CO's - one spent the war in a camp in NZ - his brother was in the RNZAF, his father was wounded at Gallipoli and was a confirmed CO after that. Another of Dad's cousins was "on the run" from authorities in NZ - his 2 brothers who were serving overseas - one was a coastwatcher in the Islands, and Dad's family supported him all the way. In fact, all the CO's in WW2 were fully supported by our families.
A lot of the old vets wouldn't talk about their experiences, but some would, in the right circumstances. Nearly all said, that if they knew when they joined up what they were getting into, none of them would have joined up. Dad wouldn't join the RSA, nor would my Grandfathers or any of their friends - but they would raise a glass to their mates every Anzac day, in quiet remembrance - they just couldn't stand the pretentious pious pontificating by just the sorts who would take the country into war, in "official" remembrance.

My abiding memory of Anzac Day is the Cenotaph dawn service, with a group of old women,(Great Aunts and their friends) there to remember and mourn the deaths of their brothers, friends and fiances, in a war they went to because they were exalted to, "in defence of king and country", which was nothing more than another egotistical power struggle between priviliged power groups, that thought nothing over killing millions of people to serve their puffed up vainglorious egos! (that came from my Grandmother, whose fiance was killed the day after her favourite brother, and she married a man who was on an 80% disability pension due to war wounds for the rest of his life.)
She also fully supported me when, after being called up for National Service, I told them to stick it up their collective arses! It wasn't the "service" - at least we weren't being shipped off to foreign wars, it was the principle of the thing! And did I get shit from others - normally those who had not been that affected by the war, or still bought into the, "they all died for you...blah blah blah, the least you can do..blah blah blah. The least I could do was do what they would have liked to have done - told them to stick it. I'm not a CO - I'd fight hard if me or mine were attacked, but be damned if I was going to be a part of the continuation of the myth!

Imagine, after all this, I still don't like ANZAC biscuits.

Very over rated! - espec the commercial ones...!

[Banditbandit]

[COLOR="#139922"]
meh, thats on the same reading list as the last thing you suggested i read...
feel free to post me your copy though...

You're easy to please ... it's here ...

http://neversleep.wordpress.com/2008...ogenzo-online/

There will be a test this time next week ...

[Banditbandit]

how is it we have the capacity to philosophise, how is it we have consciousness?
personally, i'm not one for accepting what's written down ("believe in the scriptures") - what if, by some twisted happenstance, humanity was destroyed and it were only my writings that survived for the next species?
to rely on scripture, however old and however enlightened, doesn't sit with me.

consciousness cannot come from nothing, (to my mind) so consciousness has to come from consciousness, and, to my mind, that can be called god, the source, the creator etc.

now, given that everything is of god, everything is god, a bit rasta... jah and jah and i and i.
so. i am god, as a metaphor: the knowledge of god is written into my DNA.

Hmm .. see, as I read what you write it is so Zen it is not funny - it is spot on what Dogen says (Shobogenzo is not scripture - it is the writings of a Zen monk ... ) and Gautama (who achieved awakening and became a Buddha, leaving Samsara for ever) even counselled people against simply believing what they here (Kalama Sutra - go here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....065.than.html )

But I never use the word "God" or "Gods" . there is too much Western baggage with "God" .. and in eastern philosophies Gods are never permenant - but subject to Samsara as well ... and die and cause a rebirth ....

"Canot [imagination ] just arise as a result of the interactions within this universe (whatever and where-ever that might be)?"
no, i don't believe it can. or rather, i believe all interactions are the same thing - god.

No - I would not sugegst that either .. I would suggest that our consciousnessarises as an interaction within the whole system of Samsara ... and that our imagination is part of the results of that interaction ...

Part of that interaction includes trhe chemical/electromagnetic systems in our brains/brain stem and part of it arises as we are only a part of trhe whole - which already includes some forms of consciousness. The dharma calls this "Buddhanature" ... but that is not something separate from us .. in fact, I would suggest that human beings are BUddhanature experiencing itself ... we are the consciousness of Buddhanature ... but to then begin to talk about how and why is to take part iin the dualistic world - and the dualistic world is a false perspective ...

And then - to go very Zen on you .. the sun is shining and I am going outside to enjoy the feel of it my back as I drink my tea ... what else matters?

[Edbear]

Hmm .. see, as I read what you write it is so Zen it is not funny - it is spot on what Dogen says (Shobogenzo is not scripture - it is the writings of a Zen monk ... ) and Gautama (who achieved awakening and became a Buddha, leaving Samsara for ever) even counselled people against simply believing what they here (Kalama Sutra - go here http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipit....065.than.html )

But I never use the word "God" or "Gods" . there is too much Western baggage with "God" .. and in eastern philosophies Gods are never permenant - but subject to Samsara as well ... and die and cause a rebirth ....



No - I would not sugegst that either .. I would suggest that our consciousnessarises as an interaction within the whole system of Samsara ... and that our imagination is part of the results of that interaction ...

Part of that interaction includes trhe chemical/electromagnetic systems in our brains/brain stem and part of it arises as we are only a part of trhe whole - which already includes some forms of consciousness. The dharma calls this "Buddhanature" ... but that is not something separate from us .. in fact, I would suggest that human beings are BUddhanature experiencing itself ... we are the consciousness of Buddhanature ... but to then begin to talk about how and why is to take part iin the dualistic world - and the dualistic world is a false perspective ...

And then - to go very Zen on you .. the sun is shining and I am going outside to enjoy the feel of it my back as I drink my tea ... what else matters?

Two Gingernuts with that tea!

[Akzle]

(Shobogenzo is not scripture - it is the writings of a Zen monk ...

I would suggest that human beings are BUddhanature experiencing itself ... we are the consciousness of Buddhanature ... but to then begin to talk about how and why is to take part iin the dualistic world - and the dualistic world is a false perspective ...

And then - to go very Zen on you .. the sun is shining and I am going outside to enjoy the feel of it my back as I drink my tea ... what else matters?

PS) i'm not going to read 1200 pages on a fucking computer dude...

3) beer and dope nigga, beer and dope.

2b) buddhism came after krishnism came after the vedic scriptures.

to attain enlightenment, or no-mind, mushin, or zen or buddha-ness, or higher order/planet/realm/dimension, ie, to leave the dualistic. is entirely possible, but i reckon it can be got both ways, drugs which alter the physiological (in "this" realm), and mind/spirit/third eye which also alters the physiological but operates in "the other" realm.
i also reckon people can operate omni-dimensionally, on a regular basis

2a) i'm sure that's exactly what i said but replacing "god" with "buddhanature"

1) refer 2b) both streams come from the same spring...

Two Gingernuts with that tea!

damn, shaved my ginger nuts yesterday...

[Banditbandit]

PS) i'm not going to read 1200 pages on a fucking computer dude...

Have a look for the "Print" button at the top of the page - then you can read hard copy

3) beer and dope nigga, beer and dope.

You're kiding yourself - it's that false consciousness caused by the hegemony of the ruling class combined with the pseudo-rebellion of the teenage years ... get over yourself.

2b) buddhism came after krishnism came after the vedic scriptures.

And ... ??? Weltanschuuang and philosophies change as we learn more ... older is not better ... it's just older ..

to attain enlightenment, or no-mind, mushin, or zen or buddha-ness, or higher order/planet/realm/dimension, ie, to leave the dualistic. is entirely possible, but i reckon it can be got both ways, drugs which alter the physiological (in "this" realm), and mind/spirit/third eye which also alters the physiological but operates in "the other" realm.

A self-delusion .. and there is no "other realm" ... there is only NOW

i also reckon people can operate omni-dimensionally, on a regular basis

Excellent - off you go then ...

2a) i'm sure that's exactly what i said but replacing "god" with "buddhanature"

Hmmmm ... that's why I said that your writing was so Zen ... but it's so interlaced with marijuana-inspired babble ...

[Banditbandit]

(Just waiting for a Mod to move this to Religious Ravings ... )

[Smifffy]

(Just waiting for a Mod to move this to Religious Ravings ... )

I'm finding it quite interesting actually, so I hope they don't.

[Akzle]

Have a look for the "Print" button at the top of the page - then you can read hard copy

You're kiding yourself - it's that false consciousness caused by the hegemony of the ruling class combined with the pseudo-rebellion of the teenage years ... get over yourself.

And ... ??? Weltanschuuang and philosophies change as we learn more ... older is not better ... it's just older ..

A self-delusion .. and there is no "other realm" ... there is only NOW

that's why I said that your writing was so Zen ... but it's so interlaced with marijuana-inspired babble ...

even if i owned a forest i wouldn't print it, and for the cost, it'd be cheaper to ride to your house and steal yours. (or, y'know, go fucken buy one)

teenage years are somewhat behind me. but if you were as awesome as me, you'd be hard pressed to get over yourself, too.

you were presenting an english translation of a monk's interpretation of buddhism.
the sauce of buddhism is the vedic scriptures.
prior to buddhist monk-ism, there was krishna-ism, also based on the vedic scriptures.
i query why you pick the latest interpretation of the oldest book. i do not the fact or substance of it...also that you present it as fact an then say "things must change" (or our perception thereof) how do you know i'm not the next messiah?

i disagree. if there were nothing other than now, you wouldn't have anything to base yourself on.

while i accept the now is important, and the more focused on it we can be the better we can operate in the now, but there is a was.

also, there are realms unknown, unseen, other dimensions, higher planets, etc. whatever name you give, there is reality co-existing/co-happening, that we do not typically experience.

marajuana doesn't inspire my babble, it heightens my attention of the now, subdues my urge to swear a lot, makes me think a little bit more, smoke a bit less...
it is not a false sense, it may well come under your catchall "dualistic", but it doesn't anchor me to the misery that is human existence.

i wouldn't believe you're a fruit-nut-and-milkitarian...

[mashman]

while i accept the now is important, and the more focused on it we can be the better we can operate in the now, but there is a was.

Is there room for a yet to come in there anywhere? coz dats de bit that seems to be the most important imho... in fact people have died to ensure it ommmmmmmm

[Akzle]

Is there room for a yet to come in there anywhere? coz dats de bit that seems to be the most important imho... in fact people have died to ensure it ommmmmmmm

shirley is.
But we dont have control of it (or the past). We can only affect the now.

[Edbear]

shirley is.
But we dont have control of it (or the past). We can only affect the now.

What we do now can have a profound effect on our future. Man is programmed to look forward and to plan ahead for the best outcome.

That requires studying history, researching goals and contemplating outcomes and consequences.