No. Don't let us tell you, look it up, research it, come to your own conclusion.Originally Posted by ac3_snow
Was worth a crack
No. Don't let us tell you, look it up, research it, come to your own conclusion.
No8 Wire Extraordinaire
I'm with him on that
Don't you look at my accountant.
He's the only one I've got.
Anorak
Kel your poll is extremely biased. and is a misdirection of facts.This got a pretty good thrasing out on the ESE thread so I thought I'd start a poll to see what people think.
We have a fuel rule in 24.2.5 that could use updating
24-2-5 Fuel:
See 10-17-1
Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited.
10-17-1 Allows for Avgas and FIM unleaded meaning super good but expensive Elf, VP etc are OK to use. Pump fuel E10 has also been added to 10-17-1 but our class supplementary “Alcohol based fuel or fuel additives are prohibited” means we can’t use it.
I would like to propose we allow all commercially available pump fuels to be used for bucket racing. - I tried to propose this rule change to MNZ through the Auckland club but it seems it never got to MNZ.
Why change you ask, well several reasons
A. Cost; pump fuels are cheap compared to Avgas and FIM unleaded
B. Availability; This stuff can be bought at most petrol stations
C. Toxicity; unlike Avgas all other pump fuels are lead free
D. Quality; the biofuel blends are generally good quality
E. Power; while the pump biofuels wont match the super expensive FIM fuel, if used in a correctly set up motor they can produce good power even similar to Avgas (E85 rather than E10).
So vote - Agree or Disagree its your choice but tell us why.
Now the other obvious problem is that fuel additives are prohibited. All two strokes have an additive in the fuel called oil, but hey you’d have to be a complete wanker to protest that one right.
You are not correctly stating what people are voting for..........
You say pump fuels are cheaper........ but E85 much dearer than Avgas.
E85 is not available as you allude freely all over the country.
The toxicity of E85 is the same or likely worse than Avgas.
Biofuel does not mean it is more earth friendly. In fact quite the opposite
the FIM fuels you allude to are not bucket legal.
E85 offers an substantial performance enhancement to air-cooled two strokes.......over all other non alcohol fuels esp Avgas.
Due to the cooling effect, which is the reason they are allowed to run extra cc over an liquid cooled engine.
Four stroke will be able to run an substantially higher comp ratio than on Avgas the running costs will go up as the big ends and rods will not last long.
Then the track will be littered with there bowels... oil will be everywhere.......
its a Trojan horse..... a clever air cooled one at that. I expect it will allow an extra 4-5 hp at the same level of reliability the air cooled 125's enjoy now.
Substantially less reliability levels for the rest of the class legal bikes.
Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken
Was worth a crack
Husa. Your facts are lacking
Please explain how the poll title or reply/voting choices could be incorrect
according to Gull E10 is $2.29 and E85 $2.03ltr. Last time I bought Avgas it was over $4.20ltr
what do you base your toxicity on? E85 is less toxic than Avgas. If you can prove otherwise please do.
I don't remember mentioning earth friend. Its my health Im interested in. If I wanted to save the planet I wouldn't be spending my time racing buckets
FIM unleaded certainly is bucket legal. Go and read 10.17
I seem to remember my FXR was air/oil cooled, so why would any benefit only be for 2 strokes
By all means have your say but please stick to the facts
Bucket Racer/Crasher
There is a bit more to this and it requires some thought. Husa is onto something with the benefit it may afford to one engine type. I'm not too worried for any pump gas to be used. It's too late for me. I've already watercooled my next engine. I don't want to see 100 octane avgas ruled out though as it's my fuel of choice though I'm sure Wobbly could come up with something that would take advantage of the characteristics of an ethanol blend.
Anorak
Read the rules..............equivalent to Unleaded FIM Fuel Apendex E look up the characteristics.
its pump super unleaded... FIM leaded fuels were jungle juice about EQ to E85....
There is a huge difference between FIM fuel and Unleaded EQ FIM fuel.
Re the heath benefits No i don't. You need to prove how much safer E85 is than Avgas......Because that is what you are trying to sell as a selling point of a rule change.Gull is proud to launch Gull Force Pro, the latest in a line of improvements Gull brings to the New Zealand fuel industry. Gull Force Pro brings you
• Extreme Octane (>110 RON Octane!)
Gull claims no Health benefits don't you think that they would if there were any?
There claim all sort's of other stuff about how it good for the environment being made from Brazilian sugercane.
Brazilian i wonder what they chop down, or where they move there farming and arable crops to grow it)and all and dairy lactose. That could be used for other things.
Avgas is far more readily available here cheaper too.
Last time i looked not everyone lives in Auckland.
Factor in that you burn at least twice as much as well..........
factor in the shipping e85 to the south Island.....
Yes thats right show me the Gull stations in the south island
Your horse still neighs........giddy up
ps i think your price for E85 is incorrect as well...
I'm in , don't believe a word of it, E85 is good stuff. This will help air cooled engines no end ( twostrokes ). Although it's not cheaper as you you will burn it at approx twice the rate. Should be cheaper! I'm not sure of the cost of Gull pump E85? I mix my own at E90 with BP 98 octane petrol. My fuel costs approx 3 dollars a litre ( then burn at twice the rate ) yes a bit expensive! 350 single with cast iron sleeve, 16 to one comp, heavy squish and a tiroidal combustion chamber. No detonation even on a hard 40K open fast ride. Nice punch out of corners. It does seem to need about 5% extra fuel after 70 degrees engine temp, not sure why? The way the fuel vaporizes perhaps? I did run it in a carburetor engine for a while but this 5% problem made it hard to control ( with my setup ). Some plastics and rubbers don't like it, all common knowledge now and fiberglass ( tanks and reeds ) most certainly are out. Carbon reeds appear to be no problem. EFI systems, no problems, I had a pump split once, rattling around loose under the bike so I took it apart. Two years soaked in ethanol, It looked brand new. Bosch injectors are made for it.
Not saying no to Av Gas, just allow ethanol as well. Might be good for supercharged fourstrokes perhaps
By the way since running ethanol I have had no piston problems, no melt downs, zero damage, the underside of the piston gets pretty dark! Same rod kit as I started with, I don't clean the engine with running petrol after ethanol, just turn it off and leave it in the corner of the shed until it's dragged out for it's next thrashing.
Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken
Was worth a crack
So if you say FIM unleaded that's different to equivalent to FIM unleaded? Equivalent = Equal, as in value, force, or meaning
Tetraethyllead nasty poison in avgas that's not present in biofuel blends
According to net research you burn a third more fuel if you use E85 no more if you use E10, do the maths on cost.
Price is according to Gull.
Facts
Anorak
Read it again. E85 is closer approx eq to the banned FIM Leaded.
But far better in cooling effects.
FIM Unleaded is a RON of 95-102 According to Gull E85 is greater than RON 110 FACT.
The rules allow an FIM EQ unleaded which (also quite toxic)FACT
Show me the price in the whole of NZ Kel? seeing as its so freely available.
Oh that's right gull 85 is not available in the south island. Avgas is......silly me......(You keep avoiding that one why it is in your spiel as a Fact)
Ethanol is also toxic poison so is the petrol making up the remainder. FACT
Your net research based on racing air cooled two strokes Kel?
Dig out your Bell Book and have a look...........
If you want a new fuel rule great. but don't try and sell it on stuff its not.........
Don't ban Avgas. Don't try and sell as rule change that advantages only Aucklanders running air cooled 125's...........
To the detriment of others.
Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken
Forum whore
Check out the new fuel specs for the Superbike class, this is what you are looking for Kel......
Good luck policing it though
Hardcore Biker
Drop Buckets supplementary rule 24-2-5 so anyone can buy their fuel from the local petrol station.
Where exactly is Kel trying to ban Av Gas?
How does increased choice for all disadvantage others?
Factual Facts are based on real Fact and Universal Truths. Alternative Facts by definition are not based on Truth.
Registered User
Yip,
Policing any fuel rule under our current system is expensive and time consuming,Kartsport just do from the digitron reading,No argument,Your disqualified right there and then...Now just got to find a steward with the balls to do it that knows how to fill out an infringement notice properly
Forum whore
Yes all the above fuels are toxic but you can drink ethanol and after a nasty hangover you will live another day. Methanol is a different story, you WILL go blind and die and I imagine something similar will happen if you drink petrol.The emissions from burning ethanol are way less bad for "your" environment than either petrol or methanol. Ethanol is available everywhere in NZ by the 200 L drum, just blend your own brew from that! You could even brew your own if you like, I'm sure there would be one or two stills down the west coast. Minimal cost and imagine that not having to pay the big petrol companies so you can go racing!
All I'm saying is I have experience using this fuel and like it, don't believe the bad rap everyone seems to give it.
Anorak
Neil the emission from burning ethanol are not the only emissions the production of ethanol creates greater net environmental loss.
Same for all the biofuels and electric cars. If you brewed your own it would not be a commercially available pump fuel.
The relative toxicity is not in doubt i just object to Kel attempting to demonise Avgas's lead content in order to advance is cause.
As a whole unleaded petrol is as bad as leaded petrol . It was pushed away more for catalytic converters than any other reason.
the move to low lead and unleaded is one of the reasons also that fuel is more expensive to refine and the yields from crude are lower.
I am not all that worried either way about the environment (with the contribution buckets make)
i object to the justification and the pushing that it is available all around the country (which it is not)
plus the obvious inconsistencies of the performance in the different engines as i mentioned below.
The same reason you run it in your two stroke and see it as a potential benefit to a forced induction design is why i am against it use.
Anyone can't buy E85 its only available near Auckland.........
What do you think will happen...why do you think the regs were altered to allow for Avgas in the first place.
originally it was pump fuel super max, (with alcohol allowed for NA 100cc 4 strokes f4)
You know the answer to that one your self as does Kel and Rob.
The 125 2 strokes when they were added to the rules had 2 restrictions.
The 24mm carb and the Air cooling.
(remember they were not there originally The rules were 125 four strokes 100cc 2 strokes.)
The idea being that they needed to be handicapped.The 25cc advantage was balanced by the thermal deficiencies and the restricted carb size.
E85's ethanol neatly nullifies one of those restrictions.
That's in essence the elephant in the room dressed as a trojan horse.
I am not against ethanol but i don't like seeing fuzzy quazzy scientific justifications to back it in order for some to gain an advantage.
Sure you can say the other's may benefit from E85, but nowhere as much as the Air cooled 125 will.
Avgas is a great leveler. No real advantage in any particular bike 2 or 4 air cooled or liquid cooled.
Its available all around the country is ultra consistent. It was added to the rules after the initial troubles with the removal of leaded super.
Id be happy for any fuel as long as it is fair.
The unavailability and discrepancies in performance advantages for some bikes of E85 rules that out.
Ask Neil the major reason he runs an ethanol blend...............in his air cooled two stroke.....
I would like to think the MNZ would thoroughly consider the discrepancies in the performance advantages before considering a fuel rule change.
Maybe Billy could explain the background of the addition of the 125 2 strokes.
Why the carb restriction and air cooling only was added as a proviso.
It would likely to be late 90's so might be well before his time, but it will be documented.
Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken
Gee Pee aRgh
After reading through this, i get lost in some where of motogp / superbikes... im not sure we are talking about bucket racing here?
from my experence two strokes are a dying breed in any type of motorsport let alone buckets, if the two stokes get an advantage out of e85 or and different pump gas, good on them, maybe its a pay off for all the time fucing around they do for there five minutes of reliability. And as the rules state no additives... witch 2 stroke oil is... hmmm.. maybe thats more of a concern. I dont know why the environment or health and safey even come in to it, 2 stroke engines are environmental nightmares and we all race these bikes to the limit witch is more likely to kill us that afew fuel fumes on a sunday morning. As for the north and south availability debate, i dont think it will be long before the rest of the country get similar blends of fuel available. Buckets are very diverse, some of us spend alot of time and money developing bikes and engines more to the point that are not suppose to make 2 times the power from standard, fuel and fuel quality are some of the key factors to hold them together at there limit. How about outlawing 2 strokes all together, everyone else has, problem solved... No, nothing like an annoying bubble bee chasing you!
just stand back and think about the sport and how its changing! Just my to cents
Was worth a crack
Nice post Tallis.
I spoke to the Elf importer this morning. They currently have no stock of their equivilent FIM unleaded race fuel which is perfectly legal for our racing. They expect to bring in another batch in about 3months. Its currently around $8ltr when buying direct i.e. you have to have an account. Feel free to look up the specs on the Elf MITS FIM unleaded oxygenated fuels
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