The role of parents in financial education

[mashman]

You know what's most surprising Mashman is your attitude that classes aimed at teaching kids how the modern money system works is fundamentally wrong. Have you at no stage thought that this could lead to MORE kids questioning the current system? Like I have said in the past in your other rants its not inconceivable possible for society to evolve away from money - its just that distributing resources fairly on a worldwide scale is far more complicated than you seem to accept. The idea that you can remove the banking and finance system we have overnight and people will carry on building cars, houses, yachts, jewellery and other luxuries just the way they are and it will somehow get equally passed around is ludicrous.

You seem to think people will fundamentally change and turn into selfless model citizens because you removed the money. If people were truly like that then the system would run as it is - people would turn down big paychecks, companies would agree to pay taxes for the greater good, criminals would stop stealing, rapists would stop raping, football hooligans would stop fighting the prisons would be empty. We would all hold hands and sing around the campfire. But that's not how we are at the moment. Money is not the root of all evil - unfortunately SOME people are.

I have considered, my wife brought it up, that kids may ask quesitons in regards to how it works. But it's a class on finance, not a class on the alternatives to the financial system, so shut up coz there'll be a 1 answer multiple choice test in 5 minutes. Why aren't there more economists out there jumping up and down for it? Primarily because they believe that human nature is a stumbling block. So they don't try. They're wrong in believing that a financial system can work and they're wrong in blaming human nature for the problems. Resources are currently moved around the globe, the logistics are there, there's enough of the staples to go around, but if you don't have the $$$ to pay for all of this, you get Africa. Sad indictment on the financial system given that money is an infinite resource. But fuck them, it's their own fault for not getting jobs right? Granted the fairly bit could be tricky if you're going to dole it out, 1 for NZ, 1 for Oz, 1 for the US, 1 for the UK, 2 for China etc... take it as it is at the moment and then start to address the issues of "fair". People have hobbies that they don't get paid for. Is that ludicrous? Think about it.

Nope, I don't think anything of the kind. I'm saying that the opportunity will be there to be less of a wanker. Oh lord , the majority of people don't get big pay checks to turn down, the majority of people pay their taxes, the majority of people don't steal, the majority of people don't rape, the majority of people aren't football hooligans ans they don't sit around the campfire either, well, not the majority. Are you getting the picture yet? THE MAJORITY ARE GOOD HONEST PEOPLE THAT DESERVE BETTER, just in case you have forgotten your glasses too. That is a fact, yet you focus on the minority of "deadbeats" because it suits your argument. And your answer, dun dun duuuuuuuun, a financial literacy class. What a HUGE fuckin waste of education time.

[Genestho]

No such thing... it's all learned behaviour.
Can you explain to me why the economy is in the crapper? Not the GFC etc... but from an economic point of view. What needs to happen for the economy to re-launch itself?

It is rather obvious, you even mention it yourself.

You didn't answer my question.
By your own admission resources are finite and you say overnight there'll be a chaotic episode because it'll happen instantly.

You propose to give everyone what they need and want, material wise.
The more I get, the more I want, because I can.

I want the boat, forget the 80 metre, I want the party. Bugger we trashed the boat! We didn't mean to! But now I need a new one!

I want every E-type jag ever made, also the Shelby Cobra, i want a shed of every 850 norton commando ever made, mmmm jota laverdas, Ducati tri-colour 750's I'm going to need a few sheds?
I need Moar land.. That's going to upset someone!

Now I'm going to need maintenance men and gardeners. I wanna eat out every night. I want all the latest appliances with technical wizardry and all my do-dackeys, cant live without my ipod, my ipad, my imac. Whoops I'm a bit busy to contribute to the system because I'm having a lot of fun here!
I want a new house, actually make that three, also a few batches dotted round the world, actually mansions, just because apparently I can has what I want. And I need to visit my cribs regularly!

That's not all but you get the picture.

Lets equate that behaviour to the billions in personal debt because its potentially the same mindset. I don't need to know how things work, nor slow down my consumption because I have everything, I can rock into suppliers and get what I want, if not some nice cheery chap will give me a call when stuffs ready!

x that by a few billion because surely not everyone's needs are that frivolous = a massive strain on providing resources.

Do your two theories not contradict? Or have your ideals changed.

[oldrider]

Mashie - I know you enjoy these arguments but doesn't it worry you that on a site with 4000 members, you have almost no support? Could it be that you are mistaken? Or are you convinced that everyone else is wrong and you are a lone messiah?

Golly Winston, think how many times that society has been wrong and but for the persistence of some of our lone individual crusaders that turned our right!

We would still be away back in the dark ages! ...... Vive la difference ..... hang in there Mashie!

[mashman]

It is rather obvious, you even mention it yourself.

You didn't answer my question.
By your own admission resources are finite and you say overnight there'll be a chaotic episode because it'll happen instantly.

You propose to give everyone what they need and want, material wise.
The more I get, the more I want, because I can.

I want the boat, forget the 80 metre, I want the party. Bugger we trashed the boat! We didn't mean to! But now I need a new one!

I want every E-type jag ever made, also the Shelby Cobra, i want a shed of every 850 norton commando ever made, mmmm jota laverdas, Ducati tri-colour 750's I'm going to need a few sheds?
I need Moar land.. That's going to upset someone!

Now I'm going to need maintenance men and gardeners. I wanna eat out every night. I want all the latest appliances with technical wizardry and all my do-dackeys, cant live without my ipod, my ipad, my imac. Whoops I'm a bit busy to contribute to the system because I'm having a lot of fun here!
I want a new house, actually make that three, also a few batches dotted round the world, actually mansions, just because apparently I can has what I want. And I need to visit my cribs regularly!

That's not all but you get the picture.

Lets equate that behaviour to the billions in personal debt because its potentially the same mindset. I don't need to know how things work, nor slow down my consumption because I have everything, I can rock into suppliers and get what I want, if not some nice cheery chap will give me a call when stuffs ready!

x that by a few billion because surely not everyone's needs are that frivolous = a massive strain on providing resources.

Do your two theories not contradict? Or have your ideals changed.

I fully understand what you're saying, but there is a very simple "control" point that you guys are missing. You can only have what has been produced. If it hasn't been made, you can't have it, no one can. Think about it and then rattle off your list again.

People aren't going to miss what they don't have and if they've voted for a system that "limits" material goods in the first place, then it's highly unlikely that they're going to want to return to what they didn't vote for innit.

The trade-off. Potentially less stuff v's that list below. The majority are sensible rational people when they are given an alternative.

[Genestho]

I fully understand what you're saying, but there is a very simple "control" point that you guys are missing. You can only have what has been produced. If it hasn't been made, you can't have it, no one can. Think about it and then rattle off your list again.

People aren't going to miss what they don't have and if they've voted for a system that "limits" material goods in the first place, then it's highly unlikely that they're going to want to return to what they didn't vote for innit.

The trade-off. Potentially less stuff v's that list below. The majority are sensible rational people when they are given an alternative.

But there is an alternative now and rationale hasn't been used by this same sensible majority? It's only now that we're beginning to see folk change their habits, for now - for themselves, because they've been limited. If sense and rationale had been considered prior to now, we wouldn't be here to begin with, that's from the top, down.

The control point should always be on the individual otherwise one is going to take more than one needs. Or some smarty will figure out that market is finite, can be cornered and controlled. Hello, here comes the demand again..

People will exploit that, it's inevitable. They always have.

Do you really think that a bigger country with different beliefs and cultures with richer resources believing them to be finite, isn't going to tell a smaller country to bugger off and get their own, what's in it for them when dealing with countries with minimal resources?

[Banditbandit]

But where's the debt carried by this here wad in my pocket, genius?

The piece of paper in your pocket is a symbol that someone owes you something ... the money carries that debt ...

you blame "the system".

Do you have any conception of the terms "systemic failures" and "systemic issues" ???

But it is free. It's my lunch. I earned it. I own it. So man up and explain where it's debt is.

Hang on .. your lunch can not be both free and earned by you ... that's a definite conflict in ideas right there ..

[mashman]

But there is an alternative now and rationale hasn't been used by this same sensible majority? It's only now that we're beginning to see folk change their habits, for now - for themselves, because they've been limited. If sense and rationale had been considered prior to now, we wouldn't be here to begin with, that's from the top, down.

The control point should always be on the individual otherwise one is going to take more than one needs. Or some smarty will figure out that market is finite, can be cornered and controlled. Hello, here comes the demand again..

People will exploit that, it's inevitable. They always have.

Do you really think that a bigger country with different beliefs and cultures with richer resources believing them to be finite, isn't going to tell a smaller country to bugger off and get their own, what's in it for them when dealing with countries with minimal resources?

That's very true, but I haven't seen it offered to the majority as an alternative by any mainstream, or otherwise, party. Let alone there having been any education to gain a better understanding of what such an alternative may do or how it would work. Have you? very very true, we leave it up to those who are more interested to have our best interests at heart.

True. But you still have to produce the good/service before it can be consumed. No doubt there will be some who believe that they can get ahead by fiddling the system. Great, let them do it... but that doesn't mean that the majority will follow suit, does it?. Maybe the majority will frown upon the behaviour of the individual that's "rorting" and will deal with the person themselves.

Yes, they always have because those things have always been there to exploit given the circumstances. Change the circumstances and I believe you'll see different behaviour. Please keep in mind that to get to that point we will have had to vote the system in and that people will understand that hoarding etc... will achieve nothing. If the majority understand that, then perhaps they'll keep an eye on where all of the resources are going to avoid such pettiness? We're all capable of change and if there is a reason for that change, then perhaps we'll see something better from the people... never know until we try.

That's up to the bigger countries to deal with. If the majority of their populations want to live like NZ, then we can share resources as if they lived 2 doors down. Yes resources may eventually become finite (may as in there's a lot of water still, there's sun/wind/tides/nuclear for power etc...), but that can be much further down the track if we don't throw them all away on the capitalistic free for all, I want to sell therefore I must produce and generate need . So much waste in so little time.

[FROSTY:Me]

mashman I genuinely don't understand where you are comeing from.
The current idiotic situation we find ourselves supporting (feeding kids in schools) is a DIRECT result of a generation of people with at best little financial planning skills coupled to a totally selfish attitude in life.
I've been pushing for REAL financial and life skills education being compulsary right up to year 11 students.
It won't help the current generation a lot but will teach kids to live within their means and for that matter HOW to do so.
Or do we want to totally ignore the lesson that the USA has taught us. An entire nation liveing well beyond its means. We see exactly how well that worked diddn't we?

[avgas]

[blue rider]

an age ol tale.....

does not work anymore....no one went to the sustainability classes

[Banditbandit]

FISH .. Oh .. my favourite past time after bike riding and sex .. I think I'll fire up the boat this weekend and see if I can kill some fish ...

(Unlike the pix above I got snapper, gurnard, trevally and kahawai (more than one of each) last time I went out about four weeks ago ... )

[mashman]

mashman I genuinely don't understand where you are comeing from.
The current idiotic situation we find ourselves supporting (feeding kids in schools) is a DIRECT result of a generation of people with at best little financial planning skills coupled to a totally selfish attitude in life.
I've been pushing for REAL financial and life skills education being compulsary right up to year 11 students.
It won't help the current generation a lot but will teach kids to live within their means and for that matter HOW to do so.
Or do we want to totally ignore the lesson that the USA has taught us. An entire nation liveing well beyond its means. We see exactly how well that worked diddn't we?

I understand where you are coming from though . Being financially aware does not stop the behaviours you are talking about. Billionnaires go broke too ya know. The one thing people seem to be ignoring is that at the time of taking out HP those people can afford it. Otherwise that'd be classed as irresponsible lending wouldn't it?
It's not hard to know how much you can afford to pay at any given point in time. You have X coming in each week, you can afford to spend Y. The problems occur when circumstances change i.e. interest rates rise, cost of living rises, an unforeseen expense appears and they borrow borrow borrow with every intention of being able to pay it back. Plenty of people do pay it back, plenty of people hit the skids and end up out of their depth through no real fault of their own, coz circumstance screws their once comfortable position.
It's all fine and well telling kids to live beyond their means and I'd venture that the majority manage just fine... unless you have figures to highlight otherwise? So it doesn't highlight a lack of education in regards to spending etc... it highlights a problem that life changes and catches people out financially sometimes.
Most of the bankruptcies in the US are due to having to pay medical bills, not due to people overspending. Read up on it, because it isn't people living beyond their means.

[blue rider]

FISH .. Oh .. my favourite past time after bike riding and sex .. I think I'll fire up the boat this weekend and see if I can kill some fish ...

(Unlike the pix above I got snapper, gurnard, trevally and kahawai (more than one of each) last time I went out about four weeks ago ... )

found the pic on a site for everything fish ...smoked, grilled, in sauce, in aspic....yum......snapper

[avgas]

It can end poverty Winston. Is that not worth it?

Interesting concept.
End poverty. Or simply move it?

Say remove money altogether. So now instead of $1m I have a million sheep. People come to me and when I need something I swap a sheep for it.
Every day I have lamb.
Am I likely to ever live at the same level as someone who had say 5 sheep?
Or would you be like Mao and kill me off so that you can give everyone an equal share of my sheep?

There is an old Russian engineer saying.
они вид, что платят мне, я вид, что работаем
"They pretend to pay me, I pretend to work"

Now I would like to say that I would keep doing what I was doing without pay. But to be brutally honest I have always wanted to stop working for everyone else - disappear, become self sufficient and think/learn away from the mass. Perhaps do my own designs etc.
I would not contribute to society at all. I would simply ignore it. I see no point in helping the common man, only specific ones whom I choose.
The only thing that makes me step outside this comfort zone currently is the fact that I will receive some form of reward for doing so.
In most instances this is money.

If I don't require money, I will become completely selfish and only do what I want to do. Which suits me fine. But might go against the design of the system. I would change from a provider to a free-rider.

Perhaps we should teach kids morals of how the current system should work.............and then hope they get it right.
Teaching them why its broken........nothing positive is to come out of that. It won't fix poverty - it creates it.
If you ride a motorbike do you stare at the corner with all the crosses on it?
Your answer is that we should - and make the road safer. I question if we make the road safer does it fix anything?

[avgas]

does not work anymore....no one went to the sustainability classes

Soilent Green is the answer to your pic.