My first poll for the NZ public

[bogan]

Fair point... and noted. Perhaps phrasing it as, if you are morally irresponsible you will be thrown in jail, with a judge deciding what is moral or not. That's what happens at the moment (accept with "laws"), so there shouldn't be any trust issues, tight? People already trust each other. Granted there's a huge amount of skepticism in that trust, but that's primarily because they don't want to be ripped off. Removing money should remove a vast chunk of that mistrust, after all confidence crime requires trust to exist in the first place. I think that will turn around, foolishly perhaps, dunno, but removing money should remove many of the reasons for confidence crimes (SCF/Hanover/JP Morgan et al). True. The scarey thing is though, that circular logic already exists, boom and bust for example. How do we fix that, oh we throw in a different economic model. Nope, still boom and bust... best change the economic model then... nope still boom and bust... let's change the economic model then... ad infinitum. No money can break that boom and bust cycle and given that the experts and professionals are the real smart people of the world (debatable ), wonder how well they;d be able to define NOW (or similar) in reference to your questions?

Wait, so if a Judge decides I need to keep doing the crutching but I have quit, I could go to jail? Or if a judge decides I didn't need that bike part I tried to order I could go to jail? And who judges the judges?

[mashman]

How about living in a world where ones ability to obtain a credit is based on a 'social profile'......might also be used to determine ones employability


http://venturebeat.com/2013/05/26/wh...-credit-score/

interesting read

Awesome, social media idol... women will rule that world and would get the breast jobs. All to protect money What a waste of processing power.
I guess an interview question could be, does your world stop you from applying for jobs

[mashman]

Wait, so if a Judge decides I need to keep doing the crutching but I have quit, I could go to jail? Or if a judge decides I didn't need that bike part I tried to order I could go to jail? And who judges the judges?

It's all up to the judge. Hey, you want accountability, how far do you want to go in regards to coercing people to be accountable? You only tried to order the part, no harm no foul, but still, if the judge is on the rag you could well be in the shit.

[bogan]

It's all up to the judge. Hey, you want accountability, how far do you want to go in regards to coercing people to be accountable? You only tried to order the part, no harm no foul, but still, if the judge is on the rag you could well be in the shit.

So, swapping one system in which the majority of the power lies with just a few for another. Yeh, no thanks on that shit.

[SMOKEU]

And you think that rate will stay the same? As mining difficulty skyrockets will the exchange rate skyrocket too?

It generally follows that trend, although every now and again there will be skyrocketing exchange rates, followed by inevitable crash before steadying itself out again. There was such a crash a couple of months ago when BTC went up to $US266, before steadily plummeting back down to the current values.

Once the values increase, that generally stops people from selling coins, until the market reaches a certain point where people dump their coins en masse which forces prices down. It's not much different from the general share markets in that respect where supply and demand is what forces prices to change.

[mashman]

I don't agree. Look around, society is set up to cater for the needs of those who consume more than they earn. So there's not only second chances after failure at school there's on-going support for further failure. And, as a rule, when you encourage a certain behaviour it rapidly becomes "normal". Which is why we currently have a society being rapidly populated by failures: there's not enough of a link between productive effort and it's natural reward.

No doubt the potential's there. No doubt at all. It's the effort that's missing.

So what do you propose you do with the failures? Fucksake we'd have never had the lightbulb if we prescribed to putting a limit on the number of times a person was allowed to fail. Your criteria is all financilly based and rooted in some form of entitlement complex i.e. you deserve because you do, they don't because they failed. we have a society being rapidly filled with failures because we literally can't afford to keep allowing people to fail. Hell we have to throw ourselves into 20k's worth of debt to get a certain level of education in the first place. Tis fookin madness.

When should the effort be put in? Surely it's a case of when the person is ready to do it in the first place? Sure there are people who take their skills for granted and will expect that their aptitude should take them further than it actually does, but hey, if they learn from that, perhaps they'll do it better next time... although having said that, it may not be a financially viable option to have another go. Tis all part of that financial responsibility thing people keep wailing about and it isn't forgiving enough to afford a second chance with a clean slate, you have to start from where you left off. Again, lunacy if you're wanting to see the potential realised.

But it's very rarely of any benefit, so why would you bother. Sure, there's a few that put in a better effort given a second chance, and I have no problem with policy making such chances easier to manage. But the real problem is the general expectation that someone can continually live high and earn low. It's simply not sustainable.

You bleat on about how the GFC was the fault of the big corporations and banking sector's manipulation of the financial system, but that's simply not so. The root cause was a whole generation of western consumers spending way more than they earned. The GFC is simply the latest in a long series of natural corrections to that excess, it wasn't the worst and it won't be the last. So the contention that there's no reason anyone can't enjoy the fruits of modern manufacturing efficiencies and technological improvements no matter what they do for a crust is exposed as patent drivel. They need to earn it.

And the expertise required to earn the standard of living available now is far more sophisticated and extensive than that which was required to keep up with the 1960s Jones'. If you want to live ploughing fields behind the arse of a horse then be prepared to live like a 17th century peasant. if you expect to live well in this century you had better come armed with qualifications and skills valuable to this century's inhabitants. That, and a viable work ethic.

You would bother just in case it is of benefit. Slamming the door shut is cutting one's nose off to spite one's face surely?

Oh bullshit. People have been spending beyind their means for decades without much of an adverse economic affect... in fact the economy has relied on these people to get credit out there. What was the latest figures, they reckon 100,000 people have $32 trillion tied up in trusts and offshore accounts etc... that hasn't been taxed. Perhaps they should start by tightening the taxation rules so that EVERY $ is taxed. $32 trillionm christ that's twice the entire US debt. No, I don't buy it being a few million people who have overspent to the tune of 100 billion (or whatever they figure is they're claiming?), especially not when there have been several fraud cases in the billions that have fucked people over. Their behaviour has landed millions of people in the shit in the first place, but sure, let's blame the housing market instead of those who allowed the likes of Angelo Mozilo to go out and sell fucked up loans to people in the first place. But yeah, let's blame those who took a chance and got hammered by a failing economy.

Ok, so provide a job for every single person on the planet at a 20% the average wage. If you want people with qualifications, skills and expertise that are valuable, stump up for an exceptionally high standard of education, get your society sorted out and offer real gold at the end of that rainbow. The gold ain't there and people are seriously starting to notice. If you're going to expect people to educate themselves (i.e. pay for it) then I suggest business starts putting its money where it's mouth is and stops relying on govt programmes to produce suitable candidates. But no, they expect it to be the way tht they expect it to be and with as little expenditure invested as possible.

[mashman]

So, swapping one system in which the majority of the power lies with just a few for another. Yeh, no thanks on that shit.

What power do that few have? they're judges, they're not setting the rules, they're just dealing out judgement based on a case that will have been put before them ion exactly the same way as happens at the moment. The difference being that currently society will throw a cannabis user in jail and let a fraudster serve home detention. Not so in "mine". The cannabis user will be ignored and the fraudster will get thrown in jail for a long time hopefully, after all they've had everything given to them on a plate and still felt the need to fuck people over.

Laws will not make the rule of society, morals will. Perhaps the "judges" will be the members of your community, those who know you best.

Here's a list of some of the benefits. Would living under a dictator who offered your society these benefits really be so bad?

Free top quality Healthcare
Free top quality Education
The eradication of poverty
A HUGE drop in crime
Equity
Sensible Laws
Fewer Laws
Almost recession proof
No need for prostitution
Teens not getting pregnant to get a house
Green technologies would become affordable
Infrastructure would become affordable
Shorter working days
Less working days
More personal time
No reliance on insurance companies
No need to rely on a pension
Less environmental pressure
Safer communities
Doing things because they need to be done
You can be what you want
No manufacturing costs
No export costs
Higher building standards
Top notch sports facilities
The highest standard of living in the world
A free workforce
The ability to respond to natural disaster without waiting for insurance companies
KNOWledge shared, not silo'd for profit protection
Open competition
Unhindered innovation
No mortgages
No rent

[bogan]

It generally follows that trend, although every now and again there will be skyrocketing exchange rates, followed by inevitable crash before steadying itself out again. There was such a crash a couple of months ago when BTC went up to $US266, before steadily plummeting back down to the current values.

Once the values increase, that generally stops people from selling coins, until the market reaches a certain point where people dump their coins en masse which forces prices down. It's not much different from the general share markets in that respect where supply and demand is what forces prices to change.

Yeh, I'm not a fan of sharemarkets for the artificial manipulations to the value of things. And this seems even worse as it's completely artificial, there is no inherent value in a BTC, what is to stop everyone just going fuck this, its getting too hard to mine them, sell what we have, thus further devaluing it below the cost of mining them.

[bogan]

What power do that few have? they're judges, they're not setting the rules, they're just dealing out judgement based on a case that will have been put before them ion exactly the same way as happens at the moment. The difference being that currently society will throw a cannabis user in jail and let a fraudster serve home detention. Not so in "mine". The cannabis user will be ignored and the fraudster will get thrown in jail for a long time hopefully, after all they've had everything given to them on a plate and still felt the need to fuck people over.

Laws will not make the rule of society, morals will. Perhaps the "judges" will be the members of your community, those who know you best.

Here's a list of some of the benefits. Would living under a dictator who offered your society these benefits really be so bad?

Free top quality Healthcare
Free top quality Education
The eradication of poverty
A HUGE drop in crime
Equity
Sensible Laws
Fewer Laws
Almost recession proof
No need for prostitution
Teens not getting pregnant to get a house
Green technologies would become affordable
Infrastructure would become affordable
Shorter working days
Less working days
More personal time
No reliance on insurance companies
No need to rely on a pension
Less environmental pressure
Safer communities
Doing things because they need to be done
You can be what you want
No manufacturing costs
No export costs
Higher building standards
Top notch sports facilities
The highest standard of living in the world
A free workforce
The ability to respond to natural disaster without waiting for insurance companies
KNOWledge shared, not silo'd for profit protection
Open competition
Unhindered innovation
No mortgages
No rent

Judges, morals, it all comes back to someone or some few at the top calling the shots. If they were randomly selected from the community it has a vastly higher rate of succeeding, but only if there is clear guidelines for how the judging needs to work, relying on the differing morals of a community member to create a consistent system of judgment is not going to work.

So, I'm just going to highlight on of those points under the yay for dictators list; 'a free workforce' if the workforce is having their jobs dictated to them they are not free, in fact that is simply a slave workforce.

[mashman]

Judges, morals, it all comes back to someone or some few at the top calling the shots. If they were randomly selected from the community it has a vastly higher rate of succeeding, but only if there is clear guidelines for how the judging needs to work, relying on the differing morals of a community member to create a consistent system of judgment is not going to work.

So, I'm just going to highlight on of those points under the yay for dictators list; 'a free workforce' if the workforce is having their jobs dictated to them they are not free, in fact that is simply a slave workforce.

It does come back to someone, but preferably a few at the top calling the shots... but those people will be "experts" in their fields, so won't be calling the shots over everything (unlike today's moneymen). Randomly selected people from the community, yup, I'm good with that and in regards to the differing morals, there should be some form of simple criteria... along the lines of, did they endanger anyone else, was what they did detrimental to the community, did they cause real harm (not just offending someone) to an individual, measures that are relatively moral free. Consistent justice is going to be a nightmare, but with any luck people would be reasonable enough that sentencing could be for the crime that was committed as the community can take the character of the person etc... into consideration. Not flawless or perfect, but probably the best we could expect?

We currently work in some shit jobs for shit pay leaving us in shit conditions, so this comes back to are you prepared to do X for your community. Tis part of the reason I mentioned that we'd have more than 1 person to any job. That offers the potential to roster/rotate the workforce around jobs, potentially doing 1 two hour day in the sewer, 1 four hour day on the bins, 5 days off. Who knows, but as more and more people become available due to the measured jobs cull, more and more options can open up to share the shit jobs across the community.

As an example, I'm a computer programmer. My job will be culled. The reason being that there are too many programmers in the country and the majority are working on similar software for different company's. Part of the country job restructure is the standardisation of development languages, or at least the creation of a set of business system interfaces that will allow ALL of our systems to communicate. What do I do? 1 three hour day tending the veggie gardens in the two streets in my area with 10 other people. 1 four hour day on the bins with 4 other people. 1 six hour day walking the farmers fields picking weeds (instead of spraying chemicals) with 50 other people, 1 six hour day transporting food/seed/fertilizer to wherever it needs to go (2 hours) all by myself, 1 hour doing the school bus run and 3 hours squirting oil on the joints of the de-dagging machine with the mechanic laughing at me whilst reading his porn mag. 3 days off. All this time I am also available to provide support for the country's applications should I be needed. As my life plows on, I perform a raft of different jobs and at some point I suddenly have a calling to be a Dr. I train for 7 years and pass well. I now work 3 six hour days as a Dr, the 1 day walking the fields coz I like it and the 1 day doing the veggies or bins as cover, or just because I can and feel like it. Blah blah blah blah blah...

[Madness]

This gives me the shits.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10887742

A land banking business with a big piece of residentially zoned real estate on Auckland's outskirts has made more than $6 million a year for almost two decades - doing nothing. QV records shows Yi Huang Trading Company owns 39 Flat Bush School Rd, which it bought in 1995 for $890,000. Now, this 29ha block is listed on the market for $112.6 million, promoted as "the land of opportunity, vacant but close to Barry Curtis Park".

[bogan]

It does come back to someone, but preferably a few at the top calling the shots... but those people will be "experts" in their fields, so won't be calling the shots over everything (unlike today's moneymen). Randomly selected people from the community, yup, I'm good with that and in regards to the differing morals, there should be some form of simple criteria... along the lines of, did they endanger anyone else, was what they did detrimental to the community, did they cause real harm (not just offending someone) to an individual, measures that are relatively moral free. Consistent justice is going to be a nightmare, but with any luck people would be reasonable enough that sentencing could be for the crime that was committed as the community can take the character of the person etc... into consideration. Not flawless or perfect, but probably the best we could expect?

We currently work in some shit jobs for shit pay leaving us in shit conditions, so this comes back to are you prepared to do X for your community. Tis part of the reason I mentioned that we'd have more than 1 person to any job. That offers the potential to roster/rotate the workforce around jobs, potentially doing 1 two hour day in the sewer, 1 four hour day on the bins, 5 days off. Who knows, but as more and more people become available due to the measured jobs cull, more and more options can open up to share the shit jobs across the community.

As an example, I'm a computer programmer. My job will be culled. The reason being that there are too many programmers in the country and the majority are working on similar software for different company's. Part of the country job restructure is the standardisation of development languages, or at least the creation of a set of business system interfaces that will allow ALL of our systems to communicate. What do I do? 1 three hour day tending the veggie gardens in the two streets in my area with 10 other people. 1 four hour day on the bins with 4 other people. 1 six hour day walking the farmers fields picking weeds (instead of spraying chemicals) with 50 other people, 1 six hour day transporting food/seed/fertilizer to wherever it needs to go (2 hours) all by myself, 1 hour doing the school bus run and 3 hours squirting oil on the joints of the de-dagging machine with the mechanic laughing at me whilst reading his porn mag. 3 days off. All this time I am also available to provide support for the country's applications should I be needed. As my life plows on, I perform a raft of different jobs and at some point I suddenly have a calling to be a Dr. I train for 7 years and pass well. I now work 3 six hour days as a Dr, the 1 day walking the fields coz I like it and the 1 day doing the veggies or bins as cover, or just because I can and feel like it. Blah blah blah blah blah...

I remain unconvinced about the volume of work done in such a system, vs the volume needed for all the things you expect.

This gives me the shits.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10887742

Damn, that is a good rate of return!

Cunts.

[avgas]

This gives me the shits.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10887742

I bet he gets under half of what he want. The land there is not worth 900K a section yet, and he is not selling 112 sections so they have to get subdivision consent on a massive scale. Give it a few years.
10 years ago, Sylvia park was a bunch of car yards, a farm and some industry (mainly Rakon). Whomever owns the farm must have a long term plan - he would be getting a cool $1m (avg) a year by just selling one section on the fringe. One-by-one he will make a good $200m.

[mashman]

I remain unconvinced about the volume of work done in such a system, vs the volume needed for all the things you expect

Fair enough. How many people work in the finance industry do ya reckon? Including the finance/accounts departments of company's? How many business functions could be automated and how many programmers/project managers/business analysts does that release? How many jobs can be replace by "robots"? How many lawyers are going to be out of work? How many police? How many other jobs really aren't needed? So I'm gonna stay on the confident side of enough people being available to do the work that is needed, if not only because of the above, but because the jobs that need to be done are already being done.

[avgas]

Really? So there are at least 7 billion CEO roles that command a salary of over $1 million per annum?

Certainly - there a 100 billion startups that haven't started - say 7% are successes, that is a self made market for your CEO's