Stupid World

[mashman]

So what comes out the exhaust then?

Oxygen... and if you have some form of condenser, clean water.

[bogan]

Oxygen... and if you have some form of condenser, clean water.

So, run a condenser, and put the water the comes out of it back into the tank and you'll never need to fill up again!

Sounds too good to be true right?

[mashman]

So, run a condenser, and put the water the comes out of it back into the tank and you'll never need to fill up again!

Sounds too good to be true right?

According to Fergus there's a 50% loss of energy somewhere along the lines, so I'm guessing that that isn't the case. I assume most of that is lost through heat exchange?

[bogan]

According to Fergus there's a 50% loss of energy somewhere along the lines, so I'm guessing that that isn't the case. I assume most of that is lost through heat exchange?

That is 50% loss of energy to convert water to hydrogen. As in a car engine requiring 100hp input (for about 40hp output at current best efficiency) would need to produce 200hp of electrical energy. Now if that 40hp number was larger than the 200hp you would have something that was viable.

[mashman]

That is 50% loss of energy to convert water to hydrogen. As in a car engine requiring 100hp input (for about 40hp output at current best efficiency) would need to produce 200hp of electrical energy. Now if that 40hp number was larger than the 200hp you would have something that was viable.

That whistled over me heed. I believe that you can apply certain electric frequency's to make the splitting more efficient (going on Stan Meyers research).

I wasn't really thinking about it from a car point of view. I was thinking more along the lines of disaster areas and dirty water.

[Ocean1]

As I said in an earlier post, I made my own crude device that ran using a computer power supply connected to the 12v output and generated hydrogen. Given that a car uses a 12v battery and has a charging system the power required for splitting hydrogen from the water is already there. So no, if you had have read the post where I highlighted the device I had made, you would realise that I wasn't that it hadn't slipped my mind at all. Carry on making up your own story's though, tis very funny.



The implication that I was expecting to burn water given that I have tried this myself, no not burning water, but splitting hydrogen out to make it go bang (which I never tried), allowed me to sit back and watch the pack chasing their tails saying that that's what I was talking about... the fervor with which they go about their task is always amusing. But yes, I will refer to it as running on water because water is poured into the tank, similarly to petrol being poured into the tank still requires oxygen and a spark to make it go bang. Fun fun fun

Mushmate, you bring a whole new meaning to Wrong.

If you started with, say 100kwh of energy and used that to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen you lose at least half of that in process inefficiencies. So you've got at best 50kwh worth of hydrogen and oxygen. Now you burn them with an excellent internal combustion engine efficiency of 50%, and you get: 25kwh. So as the more patient here have been telling you any such engine doesn't produce any energy at all, it consumes 75kwh. That's a net loss of 75%.

Compared to petrol, which is effectively free, takes about 10% of it's intrinsic energy to process and once run through that same engine at 50% efficiency still produces a positive energy output of 40%.

Are you beginning to see some tiny hint of the almost unbelievable ignorance your opinion displays?

[unstuck]

I have just made my own simple ram pump for moving water, out of bits of pvc pipe and other stuff. At the moment it needs a 12 volt battery to start it moving, but I want to get it to the stage where it will run itself with just a little water flow. I know I could probably find out how to do all this online, but I am trying to resist that because it is much more stimulating for my brain to nut it out for myself. What positive things have you challenged yourselves with today?

[mashman]

Mushmate, you bring a whole new meaning to Wrong.

If you started with, say 100kwh of energy and used that to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen you lose at least half of that in process inefficiencies. So you've got at best 50kwh worth of hydrogen and oxygen. Now you burn them with an excellent internal combustion engine efficiency of 50%, and you get: 25kwh. So as the more patient here have been telling you any such engine doesn't produce any energy at all, it consumes 75kwh. That's a net loss of 75%.

Compared to petrol, which is effectively free, takes about 10% of it's intrinsic energy to process and once run through that same engine at 50% efficiency still produces a positive energy output of 40%.

Are you beginning to see some tiny hint of the almost unbelievable ignorance your opinion displays?

So you're saying that getting oil out of the ground and into the petrol tank is more efficient than splitting hydrogen and using it?

[gwigs]

[QUOTE=Ocean1;1130561273]Mushmate, you bring a whole new meaning to Wrong.



Compared to petrol, which is effectively free,

If you can steal it from someone else ..like say Iraq....
Oh yeah its free almost.. but someone paid for it eh..
maybe poor Iraqis ...Oh and lets not forget the profits for Warburton for a start..
G.W.Bush looked after his mates eh..?

[gwigs]

Compared to petrol, which is effectively free,

If you can steal it from someone else ..like say Iraq....
Oh yeah its free almost.. but someone paid for it eh..
maybe poor Iraqis ...Oh and lets not forget the profits for Warburton for a start..
G.W.Bush looked after his mates eh..?

[Fergus]

That whistled over me heed. I believe that you can apply certain electric frequency's to make the splitting more efficient (going on Stan Meyers research).

This guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley...ater_fuel_cell

Looks like he created a free energy machine then got ruined by the energy industry shadowmen?

I wasn't really thinking about it from a car point of view. I was thinking more along the lines of disaster areas and dirty water.

Where does the energy required to produce the H2 will come from? (I'd assume energy is in short supply in disaster areas...)

what use does a disaster zone have for H2?

What advantage does this have over traditional water purification methods that require far less energy like boiling, distillation etc?

Why do you want to create an explosive gas when the goal is to purify water?

[bogan]

So you're saying that getting oil out of the ground and into the petrol tank is more efficient than splitting hydrogen and using it?

Its extraction vs creation. Hydrogen is essentially a chem neutral reaction, you finish off with the same compound you have at the start. Which is the same as a battery, in that the maximum energy you can get out of it, is what you put into it. But in practice putting energy into it is inefficient (50%), and using it in an engine to get the work out of it is less efficient (30-40%), resulting a net loss across the process. Not only is it not a viable fuel source, it is not a viable energy storage or transportation system either. It's like charging a battery in line with a lightbulb, no matter how much energy you put throw at it, you can never put all of it into the battery as the light glows and wastes it whenever you try.

Extracting and burning petrol is not chem neutral, you end up with compounds different from what you started. This reaction is exothermic, so energy is released during the transformation. This is a fuel, there's no way to reuse the final products like with hydrogen. The energy involved in getting the petrol out is not tied to how much energy the petrol has in it, which is far greater than that required to get it, making it a viable energy source.

[Scuba_Steve]

The lightbulb an impossible fantasy, "TV will never be possible", "Everything that can be invented has been invented.", "Document transmission through telephone wires will never be practical", the microchip "utterly useless", "Fooling around with alternating current is just a waste of time; Nobody will use it, ever.", "you'll fall off the edge of the world" - Ah Science always with the answers

Lest we forget Science is but an organised system of ignorance, noting more.

[Fergus]

The lightbulb an impossible fantasy, "TV will never be possible", "Everything that can be invented has been invented.", "Document transmission through telephone wires will never be practical", the microchip "utterly useless", "Fooling around with alternating current is just a waste of time; Nobody will use it, ever.", "you'll fall off the edge of the world" - Ah Science always with the answers

Lest we forget Science is but an organised system of ignorance, noting more.

Yep, systematically ignoring unempirical, unfalsifiable, unrepeatable rubbish since way back..

And look where that has got us...lightbulbs, TV, faxes, computers, space travel etc

Ah Science always with the answers

Dead right

(BTW most of your examples are engineering problems, not science..)

[mashman]

This guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley...ater_fuel_cell

Looks like he created a free energy machine then got ruined by the energy industry shadowmen?

Aye, that fulla. As bats as he was he was pretty good when it came to ze spliting of his elements from what I've seen. Dunno about his buggy, did he do it, was it a hoax, dunno.

Where does the energy required to produce the H2 will come from? (I'd assume energy is in short supply in disaster areas...)

what use does a disaster zone have for H2?

What advantage does this have over traditional water purification methods that require far less energy like boiling, distillation etc?

Why do you want to create an explosive gas when the goal is to purify water?

Dynamo, battery, solar cell, home made wind turbine, combination of all of those and anything else people decide to use. I remember hearing somewhere that they generated power using washing machines in rivers in Sarajevo?

To clean the water. It's already in the water and it should be nice and clean coming out of the other side.

When you run out of things to burn, you run out. Maybe the dynamo, battery cell etc... would be able to boil the water for long enough to produce the water required, would love to do the experiment.

To run a wee mower engine or similar to purify the water.