David Shearer quits

[Oscar]

Yeah, sometimes I do - a large part of me could be esasily persuaded to support the POV that the vote is wasted on ordinary people ...

Who's idea was it to let fuckwits vote ??? The problem, of course, is deciding who are the fuckwits who should be disqualified from voting - now I'd let you vote, but given the option I'm not sure that you would let me vote ..

An intelligence test before you vote?
A better idea would be an intelligence test before you breed.
Then there would be fewer fuckwits in the first place.

BTW – I’d let you vote. The only reason the Tories aren’t completely out of control is that the balance of power is so fine. I’d take a marginal Labour government over a dominant National one any day.

[Banditbandit]

I always come back to a voting licence. A basic scratch-and-win test on how our system of government works...followed by a practical test (vote Green and you fail )

I like Heinlein's idea of only letting people who are prepared to serve in the military and die for their country have the vote - after all they have proven they are capable of self-sacrifice for the good of the whole country - who better to let decide how it is run ... they will act for the good of the whole country .. (It's in Starship Troops)

[Oscar]

Yeah .. you can ... Bill Clinton and other 'merikan presidents were criticised for using focus groups ansd other opinion polling to see what policies would be accepted by the electorate ...

Myself, I think that is a very good way for a democracy to run - have a regular look at what opinion polls tell you - and good focus group stuff too ..

"s only purists like yourself who probably don't like that idea because it is not really "asking the electorate" and democracy only works through the ballot box ..

Government "Of the people, by the people, for the people" need not rely only on three or five yearly nationwide votes ... and it should not - otherwise it becomes an elected dictatorship

$9m for a referendum that the Govt. is going to ignore?
On a topic that was an election issue anyway?

This is where your focus groups fall down. National knows that a majority oppose asset sales, but not enough to change their vote.
Maybe it shows that their voters trust them to do the unpalatable things.
Imagine a Govt by referendum through the GFC?
World War 2?

[Oscar]

I like Heinlein's idea of only letting people who are prepared to serve in the military and die for their country have the vote - after all they have proven they are capable of self-sacrifice for the good of the whole country - who better to let decide how it is run ... they will act for the good of the whole country .. (It's in Starship Troops)

That was probably based on the Roman State exchanging limited citizenship for military service.

[Banditbandit]

BTW – I’d let you vote. The only reason the Tories aren’t completely out of control is that the balance of power is so fine. I’d take a marginal Labour government over a dominant National one any day.

I'd probably agree with you ... and VV ... in reality how people vote is as much an emotional decision, and sometimes and ideological decision as it is a rational decision ...

I keep saying to my colleagues ...

I got my career start under a National Government scheme ..
I bought my first house supported by a National Government scheme ...

Labour talks big on Maori and Treaty issues - and does noting ..

A National Government under Bolger/Graham poured millions and millions of dollars into Treaty settlements ... More money in one year than the total of Labour's settlements ..
Labour talked about Maori radio .. and did bugger all ...
Two years after a National Government therwere 26 Maori radio stations across the country ...

How come we don't vote National and how come the anti-treaty settlement brigade does ???

[Oscar]

I'd probably agree with you ... and VV ... in reality how people vote is as much an emotional decision, and sometimes and ideological decision as it is a rational decision ...

I keep saying to my colleagues ...

I got my career start under a National Government scheme ..
I bought my first house supported by a National Government scheme ...

Labour talks big on Maori and Treaty issues - and does noting ..

A National Government under Bolger/Graham poured millions and millions of dollars into Treaty settlements ... More money in one year than the total of Labour's settlements ..
Labour talked about Maori radio .. and did bugger all ...
Two years after a National Government therwere 26 Maori radio stations across the country ...

How come we don't vote National and how come the anti-treaty settlement brigade does ???

I’d attribute some of that to Key’s leadership style.
That he managed to form a working coalition with the Maori Party is worthy of respect.
The rabid anti-treaty mob you refer to lives with Winston, I think.

[mashman]

I like Heinlein's idea of only letting people who are prepared to serve in the military and die for their country have the vote - after all they have proven they are capable of self-sacrifice for the good of the whole country - who better to let decide how it is run ... they will act for the good of the whole country .. (It's in Starship Troops)

... you do realise that soldiers follow orders.

[MisterD]

How come we don't vote National and how come the anti-treaty settlement brigade does ???

That's got to be one of the great imponderables*. You've got to say that the likes of Jones and Tamihere are probably in the wrong party but are Labour because they're Maori.

National seem to have a freedom to do stuff that an element of their core vote dislike, but not enough to change vote over, and a chunck of floating but Nat-leaning vote are comfortable with being done in a "pragmatic National-y" way, but are easily scaremongered away from a "radical / pandering Labour-y vote-buying" way by National.

In some ways I wonder if the historic closeness of the Maori vote to Labour is actually counter-productive. National are seen to do something because it's right but Labour doing the same is easily portrayed as favouritism.


*he says, and then proceeds to ponder on it...

[MisterD]

... you do realise that soldiers follow orders.

"I need three volunteers. You, you and you..."

[mashman]

"I need three volunteers. You, you and you..."

heh... 1 Gay, 1 Maori, 1 New Zealander eh.

[MisterD]

heh... 1 Gay, 1 Maori, 1 New Zealander eh.

A gay, a Maori and a New Zealander walk into a pub, and the barman says "is this some kind of a joke?"

[Banditbandit]

... you do realise that soldiers follow orders.

Yeah ... Heinlein's are all volunteers ... not conscripts ... the idea has merits .. and as Oscar points out - it's similar to a Greek idea ... citizens get to vote ... the argument becomes how to define a "citizen" ...

[Banditbandit]

I’d attribute some of that to Key’s leadership style.

Everything I quoted was before his time ...

That's got to be one of the great imponderables*. You've got to say that the likes of Jones and Tamihere are probably in the wrong party but are Labour because they're Maori.

National seem to have a freedom to do stuff that an element of their core vote dislike, but not enough to change vote over, and a chunck of floating but Nat-leaning vote are comfortable with being done in a "pragmatic National-y" way, but are easily scaremongered away from a "radical / pandering Labour-y vote-buying" way by National.

In some ways I wonder if the historic closeness of the Maori vote to Labour is actually counter-productive. National are seen to do something because it's right but Labour doing the same is easily portrayed as favouritism.


*he says, and then proceeds to ponder on it...

I think it is about doing the right thing ... which is what prompted Graham/Bolger - and sometimes prompts John Key (who can open his mouth and sasy "we're goign to do this because it's the right thing to do" and I freak because I agree with him, I'm just surprised at his motivations ) ... Labour know the right thing to do too .. pity they do fuck all ..

Traditionally (and it has all changed) Labour was the party of the workers and working class - and that was were almost all Māori were ...

Labour and the left are still largely seen as favourable to Maori because they have, supposedly, better social policies ... while National focuses only on economics, and when they do things like cut benefits, that impacts on Maori .. National alsocome across as not caring about the environment, which for us is Papatuaknuku and the land, water, air etc ... important issues for many Maori .. National want to change the RMA etc etc .. Brownlie would mine Papatuanuku, drill in the oceans ... take our non-commercial snapper quota and give it to commercial interests ...

Like I said, Labour make all the right noises and National make al the wrong noises .. but the Labour does NOTHING and National spends millions ... Actions always speak louder than words, they say - but if this is anythig to go by, except in politics ...

It's politics .. It's a world-wide participatory sport - go figure ..

[mashman]

A gay, a Maori and a New Zealander walk into a pub, and the barman says "is this some kind of a joke?"

"Nope, one of us is NZ's future."

Yeah ... Heinlein's are all volunteers ... not conscripts ... the idea has merits .. and as Oscar points out - it's similar to a Greek idea ... citizens get to vote ... the argument becomes how to define a "citizen" ...

Don't they all volunteer? Honestly, I have to say it's a stupid idea. It's up there with allowing corporates the vote (even though they already do) on the basis that they're the wealth creators of the world's economy.

If you contribute then surely you're a citizen? Being told that you can't vote isn't freedom. Even the contribution of the unemployed is an economic necessity. There ya go, no argument , all is well with the world, just the small matter of freedom that needs sorting out

[Banditbandit]

"Nope, one of us is NZ's future."



Don't they all volunteer? Honestly, I have to say it's a stupid idea. It's up there with allowing corporates the vote (even though they already do) on the basis that they're the wealth creators of the world's economy.

If you contribute then surely you're a citizen? Being told that you can't vote isn't freedom. Even the contribution of the unemployed is an economic necessity. There ya go, no argument , all is well with the world, just the small matter of freedom that needs sorting out

Yeah, naaa .. maybe ...

The unemployed are not free .. they have no economic freedom at all and are tied to the state is the worst way possible ...

"Corporates" is a legal fiction .. migh as well let Rugby teams vote - they contribute don't they ?? And represent us? Fuck me - most nowadays would never pas an intelligence test ...

But seriously - citizenship gives people rights AND responsibilities .. in balance ... so I like the idea of "contributing" (was the Greek idea - but women and free men don';t contribute) ... the problem again is the definition ..

Universal sufferage is really the only fair answer ... but just sometimes I think .. WTF ???