Ultrabatt lithium batteries

[FastBikeGear]

If the BMS allows for 95% DOD then quoting both @ 80% DOD is like comparing who is going to win a retard sprint.
The winner will still be a retard.
The BMS will still win, but will never achieve the figure quoted @ 80% DOD as it never cut off at that point.
So it would be wiser to quote how many cycles @ DOD cutoff wouldn't it? I mean that is why you have a BMS, isn't it?

FYI my bike can do 1,000 kmh @ 400% throttle.

Just to stick my oar in here.

80% and 90% DOD figures and cycles may not be indicative of the life of a lithium starter battery. 5% or 10% DOD figures might be relevant. Testing on my bike fitted with an Ultrabatt Lithium, shows that if it takes me five attempts of 5 seconds duration to start my bike that the battery is fully charged after about 5 minutes riding. I doubt that over a 10 year life that most people would reach 80% DOD more than 50 times (5 times a year).

If we are trying to work out what will last longer, and how much longer we have to look at real world failure rates. Unfortunately LiFePO4 starter batteries with inbuilt BMS systems have only been around for a 2 years and LiFePO4 batteries without BMS systems have probably only been around for 3 to 4 years in any significant numbers. We have good experience of lithium batteries used in Electric Vehicles with BMS systems, but their usage patterns are very different.

It seems that the most common 4 causes of battery failure listed in order (from anecdotal dealer feed back are)

1. Battery being overcharged by faulty regulator (Voltages between 15V and 20V - A very common cause of failure for lead acid and no good for LiFePO4 batteries either! - many so called battery dealers don't take two minutes to do a free voltage regulation check when they install a new battery and the same thing that prematurely killed the last battery kills the next one.
2. Batteries being consistently under charged by faulty regulator (Charging voltages between 11V and 14.2V for example - Lithiums don't mind this so much but it is a real killer for lead acid batteries.)
3. *Batteries being flattened by self discharge due to bike not being ridden often enough (A very common cause of premature failure for lead acid batteries, almost never hear about it with LiFePO4 batteries going flat due to long intervals between bike being used)
4. *being flattened in total loss race setups. Not good for either lithium or lead acid batteries.
5. Suspected internal disconnection of plates or cells due to vibration (this seems to be suspected when a battery fails within a very short time of purchase and over voltage charging is not measured)
6. Internal and External short circuiting (relatively rare for lead acid and lithium batteries).

*According to one of the other distributors even lithium batteries that don't have anti-bricking circuitry that are totally flattened in total loss systems (or due to have interior lights left on) can be resurrected with an external BMS charger. But I don't think any subsequent capacity tests have been done on these recovered batteries? And we have no way of knowing how much this might reduce the life span of the battery?


After two years we know that LiFePO4 batteries with inbuilt BMS systems are less than 1% accrued after two years compared to about 14% for lead acid batteries. We know that about 25% of lead acid batteries fail in the first 3 years and about 33% fail in the 4th year, and about 48% by the end of 5 years! which is much higher than I ever expected when I started our reliability survey. I will be very interested to see what the premature failure rate on Lithium batteries with in-built BMS systems will be after 3, 4 and 5years. I suspect it will be well less than 10%.... after 5 years (or 400% more reliable) but only time will tell.

What we need now is some statistics for a two year period from a LiFePO4 batteries that don't have a BMS in them, for comparison purposes from some of the other distributors and manufacturers. But so far I have seen no failure statistics released on these ....yet.

We have some anecdotal indications from our dealers that they are already experiencing a much higher failure rate on LiFePO4 batteries that don't have BMS systems and this is making them very shy of lithium batteries in general. (This is one of the two key reasons that most motorcycle shops don't promote lithium batteries, once bitten, twice shy). We had one dealer in Newmarket tell us last week that he had two of these fail within a very short time on his own bike and he is now very wary of ALL lithium batteries.

[avgas]

we have no way of knowing how much this might reduce the life span of the battery?

Actually you probably do - have you tried asking?

Most manufacturers will give you DOD chart showing ballparks of numbers of cycles depend on DOD rates. I imagine it is sitting on a labcoats desk somewhere in UltraBatt, and was a the way they calculated cutoff points for the non-bricking circuitry.

That is if they designed/engineered the circuit for the BMS......rather than slap components together according to what the chip manufacturers said.

This comes from the R, in R&D.
Pedantic I know, but this is why the gear I work with is designed in Europe/NZ/Aussie/US etc and made is China, SA, Russia....etc
We tend to do the R&D stuff better - where china they sometimes skip the R part all together.

How do you think they came up with 10,000 cycles @ 80% DOD? Magic Die?

[FastBikeGear]

Actually you probably do - have you tried asking?

Most manufacturers will give you DOD chart showing ballparks of numbers of cycles depend on DOD rates. I imagine it is sitting on a labcoats desk somewhere in UltraBatt, and was a the way they calculated cutoff points for the non-bricking circuitry.

That is if they designed/engineered the circuit for the BMS......rather than slap components together according to what the chip manufacturers said.

This comes from the R, in R&D.
Pedantic I know, but this is why the gear I work with is designed in Europe/NZ/Aussie/US etc and made is China, SA, Russia....etc
We tend to do the R&D stuff better - where china they sometimes skip the R part all together.

How do you think they came up with 10,000 cycles @ 80% DOD? Magic Die?

They ran test cycles in a controlled lab, theorised and extrapolated, they worked out the MTBF of each component and then calculated the MTBF of the system from the individual component values, Hopefully they also factored in some changing temperature scenarios and they performed artificial ageing experiments, they assumed a level of QA in manufacture and assembly, and they assumed a level of care and abuse by the batteries owners and hopefully they factored in some regular batch testing of random samples taken from the end of the production line....all hopefully done in the time honoured well meaning fashion.

Some really good work being done here by the looks of it http://green.autoblog.com/2013/09/16...next-gen-volt/ but again it's on EV stuff not starter batteries, so not only do you need to do all of the above you need to factor in a few thousand high amperage current draws to simulate the effects of being used as a starter motor.

I get all this stuff, I understand engineering processes and I understand research and analysis....and I understand marketing....and I am a sceptic!

At this stage what we will be fed is just calculated figures done by engineers (who don't know what they don't know) and then massaged by marketing people.....which I will take with a grain of salt. We won't have meaningful, real tested and measured 3 and 4 year figures for another couple of years.

But what we do have now that is much better than educated guesses is some real world data for the first two years on the reliability of lead acid batteries Vs Ultrabatts' lithium batteries with inbuilt BMS and it is very compelling so far.

Of course to chuck a spanner in the works we now have the next generation Ultrabatt battery which has a completely new BMS in it and a new generation of LiFePo4 cells and hopefully the engineers who designed these know what they are doing again because so far the results have been much better than anyone could have hoped for!

[avgas]

Can I propose a couple of questions you go back to them with then?

"At what point of DOD does the BMS disconnect? how many cycles do you expect at that level of DOD?"

If they come back with 100,000 cycles @ 80% DOD, BMS disconnects @ 95% I question their design logic or comprehension of the english language.

Good to hear about the real world results however. I expect far superior performance for LiPo........so its good to hear you likely to get it.

[FastBikeGear]

If they come back with 100,000 cycles @ 80% DOD, BMS disconnects @ 95% I question their design logic or comprehension of the english language.

Yeah that would be pretty stupid. They are not stupid.

Also remember as a starter battery we are far more interested in 10% DOD or 20% DOD not 80% DOD. Remember these are optimized for and sold as starter batteries no deep storage batteries so if I ask them how many cycles at 80% or 90% DOD they would think it a meaningless question and they may ask what I have been smoking.

If they were building a deep storage battery they would probably use prismatic cells.

[wysper]

It's Graeme, I think. In true KB fashion, since you got that one detail wrong, the entirety of the post is wrong.

Sorry, thanks for playing, you are the weakest link, goodby.

Hahahaha fell into your own trap Drew, goodb

[avgas]

Yeah that would be pretty stupid. They are not stupid.

Also remember as a starter battery we are far more interested in 10% DOD or 20% DOD not 80% DOD. Remember these are optimized for and sold as starter batteries no deep storage batteries so if I ask them how many cycles at 80% or 90% DOD they would think it a meaningless question and they may ask what I have been smoking.

If they were building a deep storage battery they would probably use prismatic cells.

Yeah but 10% DOD doesn't tell me anything about this fancy anti-bricking technology I keep hearing about. Though I would like to hear what happens over the range, as you say - starting battery is where its at.

[Drew]

Just thinking about the power blades. I think the required for the ZX12 is three blades, how does that compare (size wise) to the old model?

[buggerit]

Has anyone tried the new ultrabatts (blades) yet and can we see them at Hampton Downs this weekend?

[FastBikeGear]

These are currently being advertised on our web site here for $172.

However we are going t make a special offer on them of just $138 for customers who already have Ultrabatt batteries or who purchase them at the same time as an Ultrabatt battery.

Ultrabatt battery monitor, lap timer, stop watch, temperature sensor, & engine hour meter.



Features

Large easily readable backlit display.
Backlight shut-off.
Ruged design, 100% water proof. (Designed with motorcycle use in mind).
battery Status, Current voltage, maximum voltage, minium voltage. (resettable).
Programmable voltage alert.
Remote air temperature sensor. Current temperature, maximum temperature, minium temperater.
Ignition time on - shows duration of active ignition on session.
Engine hour meter Counts total hours of engine run time (resettable).
Stop watch with resume feature.
Lap timer. Shows current last and best lap times. A large arrow sign indicates whether new lap is faster or slower.
Stop watch and lap timer functions activated with remote handle bar switch - (included in purchase price).
Easy installation, only 2 wires (Power & Ground) to connect.

Specifications

Size: 41 X 41 x 12 mm
Operating voltage range: 6B-18V
Voltage meter accuracy +/- 0.1 volts
Temp meter range: -20 to 80 degrees celsius
Temp sensor accuracy: +/- 0.5 degrees ceslsius
Reverse voltage and short circuit protection
Power consumption, backlight off/on: 28mA/48mA @ 12V

[FastBikeGear]

Just thinking about the power blades. I think the required for the ZX12 is three blades, how does that compare (size wise) to the old model?

Very similar in size.

Each PowerBlade is just 114x30x91mm (LxWxH).

A Battery consisting of three power blades is 114, 90 x 91mm (LxWxH).

They are so small compared to lead acid batteries that size is rarely of interest. Most customers focus more on weight. Weight of the old 2nd Generation UB600 was 1100 grams. the weight of the new replacement is 1290 grams.
Extra weight is due to:
1. two extra BMS modules,
2. two extra replaceable fuses
3. packaging.

More info here

First shipment of the Gen 3 Ultrabatt multiMIGHTY batteries has completely sold out (many of these were sold before they even arrived in NZ)

Next shipment should arrive next week. (This shipment will be our largest ever of Lithium batteries into New Zealand).

[imdying]

Post up when the blades are in stock, I'll take one (I only need a single for a two stroke race bike).

[FastBikeGear]

Post up when the blades are in stock, I'll take one (I only need a single for a two stroke race bike).

Will do should be next week when the next batch arrives.

[Drew]

Very similar in size.

Each PowerBlade is just 114x30x91mm (LxWxH).

A Battery consisting of three power blades is 114, 90 x 91mm (LxWxH).

They are so small compared to lead acid batteries that size is rarely of interest. Most customers focus more on weight.

I realise most people only worry about the weight. Our sidecar is hand built though. Things get fabricated around what we have or are getting, is why I asked about dimensions.

Moot now though, we've got someone elses product in there...until we get a better offer. Hehehehe.

[FastBikeGear]

Here is a pic of my hand and one of ultrabatt's new 3rd generation modular Lithium starter batteries. This pic gives you an idea of just how tiny these starter batteries are!

One PowerBlade as shown is typically used for bikes up to 600cc for larger bikes and cars you simply snap together two or more of these PowerBlades to get the size battery you need. Typically you would use two of these for a 1000 cc four cylinder or three for a 1000 cc v-twin. Each power blade has it's own in-built microprocessor controlled BMS.

So if you change vehicles and want to swap over your battery or you find you need a bigger battery for what ever reason just snap on another Ultrabatt PowerBlade.