Lawyer advocating 10% less jail sentence for Maori

[Banditbandit]

If memory serves we have two versions the treaty , one in English and one in maori. They are different. I cant see it ever resolving. Chuck them both out and start again.

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Yes - you are corerect

The Court of Appeals has ruiled that the version written in te reo Māōri is the legitimaet one ..

The five judges who decided the case said:

A treaty is a binding agreement between two peoples.
To be binding bioth sides have to understand what they agree to. (basic principle of contract laws)
The Pākehā understood both the Māori and English versions (they wrote it)
Māori only understood the reo Māori version
So the treaty is the reo Māori version.

And also ... the signatures are on the Māori version .. not the English version

The Māori version grants us tino rangatiratanga ... your Government has no legitimacy ...

[Banditbandit]

Oh, I get ya. I thought you were referring to the rampant inter-tribal warfare,

European wars ... in fact WWI was not just inter-tribal - it was intra-family .. a war fought amongst the ruling elite family of Europe using the working classes and colonials as cannon fodder ... or the earlier Napoleonic Wars .... or .. (and onwards)

slavery,

Abolished in Britain in 1807, after Arrival in Aotearoa/New Zealand - the so called "civilized world" had slaves up to around the same time as it was abolised here .. no moral high ground there for you ...

killing,

Everyone does that - still do ... mo moral high ground there ...

cannibalism,

Indulged in by the "Christian" crusaders when fighting the Muslims in the Holy Land ... none there either

plus land and resource takeovers that were happening prior to the evil colonists arriving.

How much land and how many resources did the British Empire take? Or the rest of the world ???

In 1800 Europe controlled around 30% of the land area of the world .. at the bringing of WWI Europe cotrolled 80% of the land area of the globe .. Our tipuna could never compete with that ... certainly no moral high ground there for Europe and its descendents ...

I'm not saying that Māori are or were perfect ... there is no moral high ground for any group or culture - we all have a bloody and nasty past .. so don't pull that bullshit ...

There are only personal ethics ... how do your stack up ???

[Zedder]

Yes - you are corerect

The Court of Appeals has ruiled that the version written in te reo Māōri is the legitimaet one ..

The five judges who decided the case said:

A treaty is a binding agreement between two peoples.
To be binding bioth sides have to understand what they agree to. (basic principle of contract laws)
The Pākehā understood both the Māori and English versions (they wrote it)
Māori only understood the reo Māori version
So the treaty is the reo Māori version.

And also ... the signatures are on the Māori version .. not the English version

The Māori version grants us tino rangatiratanga ... your Government has no legitimacy ...

A page from the Waitangi Tribunal: http://www.waitangi-tribunal.govt.nz/treaty/meaning.asp

[Zedder]

European wars ... in fact WWI was not just inter-tribal - it was intra-family .. a war fought amongst the ruling elite family of Europe using the working classes and colonials as cannon fodder ... or the earlier Napoleonic Wars .... or .. (and onwards)



Abolished in Britain in 1807, after Arrival in Aotearoa/New Zealand - the so called "civilized world" had slaves up to around the same time as it was abolised here .. no moral high ground there for you ...




Everyone does that - still do ... mo moral high ground there ...



Indulged in by the "Christian" crusaders when fighting the Muslims in the Holy Land ... none there either



How much land and how many resources did the British Empire take? Or the rest of the world ???

In 1800 Europe controlled around 30% of the land area of the world .. at the bringing of WWI Europe cotrolled 80% of the land area of the globe .. Our tipuna could never compete with that ... certainly no moral high ground there for Europe and its descendents ...

I'm not saying that Māori are or were perfect ... there is no moral high ground for any group or culture - we all have a bloody and nasty past .. so don't pull that bullshit ...

There are only personal ethics ... how do your stack up ???

I'm was just balancing out the situation by stating how things were prior to the NZ declaration of Independence and Treaty of Waitangi. The fact is, NZ was a mess, Britain tried to "tidy things up" and even then Maori were quick to jump up and cry for help when things got too messy for them to handle despite being told Britiain didn't want to rule them. Facts banditbandit, not value judgements like you've posted.

[Banditbandit]

A page from the Waitangi Tribunal: http://www.waitangi-tribunal.govt.nz/treaty/meaning.asp

Eggs and grandmothers comes to mind ...

From A GUIDE TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE TREATY OF WAITANGI AS EXPRESSED BY THE COURTS & THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL


"It may be regarded as an extension of the contra proferentem rule that in the event of ambiguity a provision should be construed against the party which drafted or proposed, that provision. Relevant in this context is the predominantm role the Mäori text played in securing the signature of the various chiefs"

It was this rule of contra proferentem that the appeals court refered to in its 1987 judgement in the case of the Māori Counmcil vs The Crown over the proposed State Owned Enterprise act ... it is that rule that says both parties need to understand any agreement ..

[Banditbandit]

I'm was just balancing out the situation by stating how things were prior to the NZ declaration of Independence and Treaty of Waitangi.

Yeah yeah .. "Balancing" .. yeah yeah ... a good liberal excuse ...

The fact is, NZ was a mess, Britain tried to "tidy things up"

Who decided it "was a mess" ??? Our tipuna certainly did not ... and how was it more of a mess than Europe, the Northern Hemispshpere .. the cycle of wars there .. with America .. across Europe .. Crimea .. Napoleonic Wars ... people being people ... no more or no less ..

"mess" is a value judgement ...

and even then Maori were quick to jump up and cry for help when things got too messy for them to handle

Which ones? Name them ... our tipuna asked Britain to sort out it's people here .. the sealers and whalers and others causing major problems .. rape murder mayhem ... breaking tribal laws ...

despite being told Britiain didn't want to rule them.

That does happen to be true - also the Colonial office ordered Hobson NOT to sign a treaty .. but hey ... Britian is a long way away so guess what Hobsonm actually did ???

Facts banditbandit, not value judgements like you've posted.

Value judgements? Britain certainly abolished slavery in 1807, after arrival here ... there certainly was cannibalism amongst the crusaders ... etc etc. Where are the value judgements ??

let's start with Britain abolishing slavery in in 1807 ... tell me where that value judgement is ..

[Zedder]

Eggs and grandmothers comes to mind ...

From A GUIDE TO THE PRINCIPLES OF THE TREATY OF WAITANGI AS EXPRESSED BY THE COURTS & THE WAITANGI TRIBUNAL


"It may be regarded as an extension of the contra proferentem rule that in the event of ambiguity a provision should be construed against the party which drafted or proposed, that provision. Relevant in this context is the predominantm role the Mäori text played in securing the signature of the various chiefs"

It was this rule of contra proferentem that the appeals court refered to in its 1987 judgement in the case of the Māori Counmcil vs The Crown over the proposed State Owned Enterprise act ... it is that rule that says both parties need to understand any agreement ..

Oh, that's right you used to teach about "The Treaty" and all its ins and outs apparently. Interestingly though, you didn't know about the Declaration of Independence, which is equally important in New Zealand and The Treaty's history, until I wrote about it a while ago. Selective memory is handy I suppose.

Anyway, I'm off for a motorbike ride in our beautiful country. Kia Kaha.

[Zedder]

Yeah yeah .. "Balancing" .. yeah yeah ... a good liberal excuse ...



Who decided it "was a mess" ??? Our tipuna certainly did not ... and how was it more of a mess than Europe, the Northern Hemispshpere .. the cycle of wars there .. with America .. across Europe .. Crimea .. Napoleonic Wars ... people being people ... no more or no less ..

"mess" is a value judgement ...



Which ones? Name them ... our tipuna asked Britain to sort out it's people here .. the sealers and whalers and others causing major problems .. rape murder mayhem ... breaking tribal laws ...



That does happen to be true - also the Colonial office ordered Hobson NOT to sign a treaty .. but hey ... Britian is a long way away so guess what Hobsonm actually did ???



Value judgements? Britain certainly abolished slavery in 1807, after arrival here ... there certainly was cannibalism amongst the crusaders ... etc etc. Where are the value judgements ??

let's start with Britain abolishing slavery in in 1807 ... tell me where that value judgement is ..

You were citing my morals and ethics which have nothing to do with the situation.

[Banditbandit]

Oh, that's right you used to teach about "The Treaty" and all its ins and outs apparently.

Far out .. you remembered ..

Interestingly though, you didn't know about the Declaration of Independence, which is equally important in New Zealand and The Treaty's history, until I wrote about it a while ago. Selective memory is handy I suppose.

Huh !!! ... I've known about the declaration longer than I've been a member of KB ... where did you get that idea from ??? You can't read and understand the treaty properly withot reading the declaration ..

Anyway, I'm off for a motorbike ride in our beautiful country. Kia Kaha.

have fun ... lucky bugger ...

You were citing my morals and ethics which have nothing to do with the situation.

Not quite .. I was suggesting that the examples you cited gave no group of people the moral high ground over any other .. and that there was no such thing as a moal high ground for any group ...

Then I suggested that there were only personal ethics and asked you about yours ... that was not a value judgement - that was a genuine question ...

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that that has no relevence .. how we treat each other is the core of this discussion ... and how we treat each other is totally an ethical decision ...

[Zedder]

Far out .. you remembered ..



Huh !!! ... I've known about the declaration longer than I've been a member of KB ... where did you get that idea from ??? You can't read and understand the treaty properly withot reading the declaration ..



have fun ... lucky bugger ...



Not quite .. I was suggesting that the examples you cited gave no group of people the moral high ground over any other .. and that there was no such thing as a moal high ground for any group ...

Then I suggested that there were only personal ethics and asked you about yours ... that was not a value judgement - that was a genuine question ...

I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that that has no relevence .. how we treat each other is the core of this discussion ... and how we treat each other is totally an ethical decision ...

Nice try, however you didn't know about the Declaration of Independence back then because you wrote words to the effect that it had been a while since you taught on the Treaty of Waitangi.

Since I'm in a good mood after my ride, I won't take you to task on that or the value judgment issue but here's a bit of info, in case you missed it, about what Maori have as resources for their betterment. Note the amount of funding etc available to them: http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/about/mpa/

[rustyrobot]

Nice try, however you didn't know about the Declaration of Independence back then because you wrote words to the effect that it had been a while since you taught on the Treaty of Waitangi.

Pssst... You are referring to this post, but BanditBandit had actually mentioned the Declaration two pages and 30 something posts earlier here. Just following your suggestion and doing some research :P

Saddle might be a bit loose on your high horse.

[Zedder]

Pssst... You are referring to this post, but BanditBandit had actually mentioned the Declaration two pages and 30 something posts earlier here. Just following your suggestion and doing some research :P

Saddle might be a bit loose on your high horse.

Psst...have a look at my post number 99 in that thread where I introduce the subject of the Declaration of Independence.

Feeling bitter from me correcting you earlier much?

[avgas]

Why don't we just lock up the criminals. Why can't you lot stop being racists? It only takes a bigot to lock someone up - not a racist.

[rustyrobot]

Psst...have a look at my post number 99 in that thread where I introduce the subject of the Declaration of Independence.

Wait - 99 is before 96 now?

Feeling bitter from me correcting you earlier much?

Nah, I was just surprised because I can't imagine anyone tutoring the Treaty without knowing about the Declaration. Besides, you didn't correct me - you just offered an opinion.

Putting aside your speculation on the motives of 'the crown', they essentially signed a contract and then totally ignored it and broke the terms for the next 130 years or so. The 'principles' that you linked to on the TPK page are an attempt to redress that injustice.

[Bald Eagle]

What injustice, when a land is colonised its game over. Why should they get a prize for being second.

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