Bikers on the Rimutaka Hill

[Ocean1]

So ... if you don't die. Your result is with just a seriously mangled body ... it wasn't dangerous after all .. ???

So how many seriously mangled bikers and how many seriously mangled drivers have there been?

Numbers or gtfo.

[FJRider]

So how many seriously mangled bikers and how many seriously mangled drivers have there been?

Numbers or gtfo.

It's your local road ... don't you read the Newspapers .. ???

How many accidents does it take to be justifiably labeled "Dangerous" .. ??

There's plenty of "Dangerous" roads here in the south with few deaths of motorcyclists ... Does NO (Motorcyclists) deaths mean they're SAFE after all .. ???????????

[Ocean1]

How many accidents does it take to be justifiably labeled "Dangerous" .. ??

Fukd if I know, I'm not the one labelling it "Dangerous"

There's plenty of "Dangerous" roads here in the south with few deaths of motorcyclists ... Does NO (Motorcyclists) deaths mean they're SAFE after all .. ???????????

Depends. Might mean it's safe only for motorcyclists. But given the propensity for roadside furniture to be remarkably unfriendly to motorcyclist I'd be surprised.

If you had numbers I could possibly elaborate. But you don't got numbers. In fact it looks like you don't even have an opinion...

Later.

[oneofsix]

Show me a Barrier that "Protects" bikers when they hit it ... ???

The cause listed in a large number of Biker accidents is seemingly .. "Lost control in a bend" ... show me a "barrier" that will save his ass when that happens ...

The problem with these barriers is that they are set up to make the off worse. There have been other threads that have shown you the barriers that lessen the damage to the biker. Some European and Aus stated have done a lot of research on this and one of the designs that does help is having a lower armco to prevent the rider smashing into the exposed legs of the raised barriers. The barriers in question have been raised to stop SUVs rolling over the top of them leaving more space for you to slide under them. As to losing control on the bend there can be many reasons for that and on this hill the wind tunnel that is the cutting is just one to add to the cage drivers that can't stay within their lane that put a rider of their line.

A barrier that will save a bikers ass? why the F would a biker have a half bred donkey or are you referring to an American gold prospector?
As to saving his arse, well you could try for a barrier that incorporates an air bag, but one that doesn't set out to maim him for the sake of an airbag equipped SUV would be a start.

[FJRider]

Fukd if I know, I'm not the one labelling it "Dangerous"



Depends. Might mean it's safe only for motorcyclists. But given the propensity for roadside furniture to be remarkably unfriendly to motorcyclist I'd be surprised.

If you had numbers I could possibly elaborate. But you don't got numbers. In fact it looks like you don't even have an opinion...

Later.

I rode the Rimataka's (Quite a few crossings on a Benelli 650 Tornado and and Suzuki GS1000) years ago (I lived in Woburn) when the only WRB's were hurricane netting fences ... and I didn't believe it was "Dangerous" then ...

On-road "Furniture" seems more dangerous to me ... and would be my number one on my list of things to avoid. My opinion is ... if you don't want to hit the things OFF the road ... stay ON the road ...

Seems logical to me ...

[FJRider]

The problem with these barriers is

Barriers stop/slow vehicles (Cars/trucks)from leaving the road ... and going down a steep bank.

Motorcycles do NOT feature into that equation ... the numbers do not make it viable. If NO/FEW motorcyclists have died from hitting those barriers ... then (apparently according to that Ocean fella) they are perfectly safe ... right .. ??

[GrayWolf]

As far as bike riders go it is the group riders i feel are the most dangerous as the leader of the group will do an overtake pressuring all the followers to overtake to keep up with them. In such a situation I am sure safety is a secondary consideration to keeping up with the leader.

Unfortunately, thats a 'sign of the times' I guess.
Like many 'old farts' on here who started riding in the 60/70's, there were a high number of old Brit bikes still in regular use. (I lived in the UK back then). As a young sprat, when we went on a group ride, the small bikes usually went in a separate bunch, and the big bikes were 'arranged' that the leader was the 'slower machine(s)' with a couple of the reliable/faster bikes at the rear (in case of a breakdown mid pack, which was frequent) so they could catch up to the front runners to advise them.
I group ride almost weekly with work colleagues, We still somewhat use the same method, If you want a 'blast' you simply wait further on up the road, no problems. If we are overtaking, we work basically on the 'leapfrog' system.. leader overtakes, then lets the one behind 'catch up' before the next 'leap' and back on down the group...
All it takes is a little communication, which I have observed on many 'group rides' over the years (often the Sunday morning blasts over the 'Taka's) they meet up, and 'take off' with no real organisation, just a loose 'mele'.

[GrayWolf]

I'm gonna put my head on the chopping block with this one. I knew the poor chap that tragically lost his life. Not well by any stretch of the imagination...but I knew him. I also know a lot of the people he was riding with. I know a lot of riders funnily enough. But a 1000cc superbike ridden in anger is a formidable weapon best suited for a race track. There's a very good reason why I don't do such *group* rides or ride superbikes in anger on the street. My best wishes and condolences go out to the friends and family of the latest loss to motorcycling (many of whom I call friends), I mean no disrespect to him (RIP) or them...but it's time to reign it in guys. And I say guys cause it generally ain't the chicks.

At the end of the day what does it matter? Some people will not be affected by the recent death, some will. Some riders will pull their heads in (even if it's for a V short time) and some riders won't. What is a certain is that no matter what, the general public do not like us and are intimidated in some form by "fast riders" or riders that ride like twats and whatever any governing authority says for or against the bikers will not please everyone. The other certain is, as others have eluded too that some riders have ruined it for the rest.
People will keep killing themselves on motorcycles and we will keep losing friends, shit happens but not one of us can stop someone from making a fatal mistake. What we can do is try and be a little more sensible cause it sucks losing mates.

Both you and Pete hit the nail on the head, in this day and age there's so much 'ego' involved, Yeh OK there always has been as for power, speed, biggest, baddest bike. Reality is most riders EGO's far outweigh their ability.. the old adage, you can never have enough power? Today's off the peg sport machines are now FASTER than the bikes Barry Sheene and co used on the race track. Barry Sheene, Kenny Roberts, even today's Rossi are/were talented riders with a riding skill and ability that far surpasses the average rider... Yet why do we see the latest yamahonduki XPZ1000RR 'ridden like they stole it' most weekends over said 'taka's? These bikes out accelerate, out top speed what were RACE bikes, but are not ridden by people who'se ability matches the performance. There are VERY few men or women riding on the road who could, when used in anger, really use the performance available both correctly and safely.
Most modern metric (big inch) cruisers are almost as quick as the legendary Z1-900cc, dont believe it? go read performance specs for a ZI and compare...... yet cruisers are considered 'bloody slow'... Cars are the same.
You can argue better brakes, better tires, better handling, yes, but the saddle jockey hasnt improved since the 1960's when the old Triumph Bonneville reigned supreme.

[Gremlin]

It's up to each rider to control their environment - how they behave, who they ride with etc.

Personally? I feel no pressure to "keep up" with the leader, as with the rest of the group. Our groups are normally small, and usually the fight is to be TEC (I win most of the time ) We don't dawdle, but we're not really exceeding the speed limit either, just not slowing down much either. Anyone new to the group is told there is no pressure and if they don't like the pace we're riding at, they're encouraged to find their own rides.

On big newbie type rides, I try to reinforce to newbies that there is a tail, no need to keep up, you won't get left behind, and the thing I hate the worst is picking up bikes out of ditches. Seems to work OK.

[Ocean1]

Both you and Pete hit the nail on the head, in this day and age there's so much 'ego' involved,

So why have motorcycle accidents decreased markedly since then?

Even accidents per registration?

[Flip]

I have a couple of other opinions.

Firstly over the 90s I have had to recover a couple of fuel tankers on the takas after a car had ended up under the trucks rear wheels. In all cases the car lost control and crossed the centre line.

Secondly I usually find that I can drive safer and faster over the tuckers than almost any bike can get over that road. I know its a great road, almost as good as the takaka hill road, certanly better than the akaroa race track. Its too tight and there are too few sections that favour power to weight over brakes and corner speed.

Of course its slowly being fucked as they take out the corners.

[carbonhed]

So why have motorcycle accidents decreased markedly since then?

Even accidents per registration?

Shhhhh! Don't disturb... he's doing his crusty old fuckwit routine. One, I must admit, he has down to a fine art.

[Ocean1]

Shhhhh! Don't disturb... he's doing his crusty old fuckwit routine. One, I must admit, he has down to a fine art.

I have no problem with any of that. As long as there's minimal actual hypocrisy involved.

[FJRider]

If you had numbers I could possibly elaborate. But you don't got numbers. In fact it looks like you don't even have an opinion...

Later.

Ok ... it's "Later" ...


I DO have an opinion ... and it's on the subject of blame.

Most people (not just motorcyclists) when they crash ... need an excuse for their misfortune. The finger of blame must be pointed in any direction ... but it can't be pointed at them. Be it poor road design ... poorly located roadside furniture (6 meters from road edge) ... poor road conditions (after ignoring the usual ride to the conditions ethic) ... even the old fall-back option of "it wasn't my fault" (often the only road user in the area at the time)

Fact is .. YOU can't "elaborate" because you have no fucking clue. (My opinion too)

Fact is ... people make fuck-ups on the road. Some get away with it and live. Some die. I just hope I'm not in the latter group. My only concern is the grief that may be felt by any involved (but NOT at fault at the time)

I personally believe that more responsibility given for one's OWN actions. It would do more for road safety than all road safety programs to date IF ... six months JAIL for "Losing control" of your vehicle and would have an instant improvement in vehicle accident numbers ...

[caseye]

Oh, at last, a sage with the right stuff!
Yep FJ that'd be a better programme than anything else they've done collectively to-date, for sure.
Make it their problem and don't shirk the consequences, take the car, impound it and don't give it back cause mum,the girlfriend or the boss needs it.
Then the jail time, automatic, no excuses, lose your job because of it? tough shit!
Can't be put in jail cause the whanau can't live without you? tough again.
One law for all.
Go Winnie!, sorry a bit carried away there, but considering what he's saying now I'm back to loving him.