Stupid World

[mashman]

Pity, it's a far more coherent language.

And no, still no cigar, I AM responsible for my actions. I am NOT responsible for anyone else's. Full stop.

Can we boil the difference down to the brutal simplicity of your belief in equity of outcomes, no matter what's produced?

Whereas I believe I can say that I believe in equity of opportunity as a fair state of affairs?

Or do you want to warble on some more about unrelated crap?

The language may well be, but the content leaves a lot to be desired.

Like totes whatevs.

No we can't boil it down that way as my belief in the equity of outcomes involves the equity of opportunity also. What is produced should be required, no more, no less. Yes, "toys" are required.

Of course it's related... but I know you don't like to think so.

[husaberg]

Not as much as rampant inflation. What do you think caused that 19% interest on my mortgage?

The market doesn't distinguish between "tangible" and "fiat" money. If you had the choice of a bank loan at 1% or one from a Co-op at 5% the Co-op would never lend that money, the bank's rate would have set the market rate and anything more would simply not sell.

And yes, of course more people would borrow money if it was cheaper, which would cause inflation to rise, lowering the value of everything in the market. See 19% inflation.

Inflation is not caused by cheap credit it is caused by increased expectations for price and wage increases it is also driven by overseas investment ocean.

How do lenders manipulate fiscal policy?

Are you serious?

I'd LIKE the market to be unregulated, I like the idea of people living within their means and it seems a natural extension to want society in general to behave that way. The fact that it's not is possibly related to all that fiat money you bleat about. If it didn't exist then loans would be limited to available savings, availability being a required control variable for any free market. What do you suppose such a limit would do to interest rates?

Nothing as long as the profits were regulated the gaps would still be be filled in the market saving would increase as the money would be in the pockets of the borrowers the economy would have more money available less would be funneled offshore more tax would be paid[/QUOTE]

In fact the artificial availability of money drives the price down, doesn't it? Which means loans are definitely easier to get and almost certainly cheaper than any natural free market could supply.

No it drives profits for banks higher

Back to that again eh? Fine, let's call in all of that fiat money and tell them to stick it back up their arses. Burn the assets they paid for. Are we back to where you want to be yet?

Ocean the availability of money does not lessen the value of anything below its true worth............

Do they not? Which ones are significantly uninfluenced by the current rate mate? I could do with a good tip.

they follow their own agenda of slowly and not so slowly raising profits

Of course competition's limited, that's what central market control is supposed to achieve.

Central market policy is designed to ease the highs and lows its just its starting from to high a base

And no, the fuel cartels were joint exploration ventures. Do you mean market control through price fixing collusion? sort of similar eh? Except it's the govt fixing the prices. And as I think I said it's a necessary corollary to the introduction of artificial availability into that market. No funny money = free market = market driven prices. Although, as I also suggested I don't think you'd like that compared to the current deal.[/QUOTE]

A cartel is a formal (explicit) "agreement" among competing firms. It is a formal organization of producers and manufacturers that agree to fix prices, marketing, and production.[1] Cartels usually occur in an oligopolistic industry, where the number of sellers is small (usually because barriers to entry, most notably startup costs, are high) and the products being traded are usually commodities. Cartel members may agree on such matters as price fixing, total industry output, market shares, allocation of customers, allocation of territories, bid rigging, establishment of common sales agencies, and the division of profits or combination of these. The aim of such collusion (also called the cartel agreement) is to increase individual members' profits by reducing competition.

Ever heard of OPEC they operate as a fringe of law by virtue of being state representatives
they use this to control the price of oil banks operate under the radar using the same means.
Shit the WBO has been destabilizing whole countries economies, who pays the price

[Ocean1]

Inflation is not caused by cheap credit it is caused by increased expectations for price and wage increases it is also driven by overseas investment ocean.

The NZRB begs to differ. They reckon it's caused by availability of money. They've been successfully controlling inflation by changing the cost of borrowing money for years.

Are you serious?

Often. In this case I wanted to know how your statement was backed up by observation of local events.

Nothing as long as the profits were regulated the gaps would still be be filled in the market saving would increase as the money would be in the pockets of the borrowers the economy would have more money available less would be funneled offshore more tax would be paid

So nothing bad would happen to prices because the natural free market control mechanism would be over-ridden by the state?

Isn't that what we've got now?

And how can you fill gaps in a market when you don't have the product to do so? How would savings increase in a market strapped for cash? There's simply no way that any purported increase in savings could fill any gap left by the abolition of fiat money. The current bleating about austerity measures would pale into insignificance against the generations of depression it would cause.

Oh, and good news about all that money headed off shore: it pays tax here before it leaves.

No it drives profits for banks higher

My you are fixated on their profits, ainch? But repeating it doesn't alter the fact that reserve banking practices make money available where nothing else would, and that it boosts economic performance, increasing standards of living.

But whatever, bank profits are bad.

Ocean the availability of money does not lessen the value of anything below its true worth...........

True worth defined by who? It sure as fuck affects it's dollar value, which is what the market uses to define value.

Which is why it's the control mechanism of choice for pretty much every government in the world for controlling inflation.

they follow their own agenda of slowly and not so slowly raising profits

Bank profits as a sole focus on economic health isn't useful, dude. And given that a fair bit of the nation's cash flows through their businesses it's not that difficult to imagine that their profits might be fairly substantial while being entirely reasonable.

And given that the interest payable is, in spite of your reservations largely controlled by the NZRB it's also difficult to see how they're responsible for that portion of their revenue. Now if you were bitching about their puissance transaction charges I'd have some help for you.

Central market policy is designed to ease the highs and lows its just its starting from to high a base

According to who? Borrowers, (y'know: the ones affected by all these high prices) are happy enough to pay them. They are, of course currently lower than they've been for many decades, and as I keep saying they do have the option of not doing so, an option, as I believe I said that I'd be happy to support.

Ever heard of OPEC they operate as a fringe of law by virtue of being state representatives
they use this to control the price of oil banks operate under the radar using the same means.
Shit the WBO has been destabilizing whole countries economies, who pays the price

Again with the fixation with bank profits. You really need to let it go, dude.

You should get hold of the commerce commission though, they'd be very interested in any evidence of collusion in price fixing you can share with them.

Not sure they'd believe there's much room for them to fuck with margins, though what, with the OCR stomping all over their market.

In fact you could more believably poke the finger at govt for price fixing.

[Ocean1]

Interesting times ahead.

Aye. Do you suppose the collected intellects involved have spotted the fact that the system they're offering as a replacement to a "flawed, oppressive" system that creates part of it's funding artificially actually creates all of it artificially?

Or are they simply hoping the punters won't spot it?

[avgas]

Aye. Do you suppose the collected intellects involved have spotted the fact that the system they're offering as a replacement to a "flawed, oppressive" system that creates part of it's funding artificially actually creates all of it artificially?Or are they simply hoping the punters won't spot it?

Well the truely smart ones have already jumped ship. I notice that the High Speed Traders (aka algorithms made by quants) appearing in the btc exchanges. But the difference is they are affecting something that has a finite limitation. So when they sell the price goes down and when they buy the price goes up. Unlike other markets.Interesting fact I learnt recently after moving to New York. Wall Street is no longer in wall street. All the markets are actually in in New Jersey and other places. So the whole occupy wall street was a waste of time as all they did was squat in a park down the road from a business district (working folk). Also if you look up the flaws in the DTCC you suddenly realised why "wall street" drove the world into the ground a few years back. One of the local quants I met put me in contact with a film that explains all.http://ghostexchangemovie.com/ Don't watch if you think there is a "free market" in the US.NZ/Aus is a little more restrictive when it comes to stocks thankfully.

[husaberg]

The NZRB begs to differ. They reckon it's caused by availability of money. They've been successfully controlling inflation by changing the cost of borrowing money for years.

The NZBR has a vested interest Ocean? can you not see why? It is common knowledge that the interest rates are effected by a huge range of factors and are subject to manipulation.......

Often. In this case I wanted to know how your statement was backed up by observation of local events.

So nothing bad would happen to prices because the natural free market control mechanism would be over-ridden by the state?

Isn't that what we've got now?

NO.

And how can you fill gaps in a market when you don't have the product to do so? How would savings increase in a market strapped for cash? There's simply no way that any purported increase in savings could fill any gap left by the abolition of fiat money. The current bleating about austerity measures would pale into insignificance against the generations of depression it would cause.

I showed you how you just didn't comprehend your views are to fixed.

Oh, and good news about all that money headed off shore: it pays tax here before it leaves.

I tried to get you to look for yourself,they pay negligible tax you said this doesn't concern you and you couldn't be bothered to look yourself.

My you are fixated on their profits, ainch? But repeating it doesn't alter the fact that reserve banking practices make money available where nothing else would, and that it boosts economic performance, increasing standards of living.But whatever, bank profits are bad

As i keep telling you i am not fixated on profits, just excessive ones, created from thin air due to a protected form of banking at the cost to all society to the sole benefit the ubber elite class.
.

True worth defined by who? It sure as fuck affects it's dollar value, which is what the market uses to define value.

Ocean its like you want to preach free market and say it self regulating and then say it isn't and doesn't need to be then say oh it is

Bank profits as a sole focus on economic health isn't useful, dude. And given that a fair bit of the nation's cash flows through their businesses it's not that difficult to imagine that their profits might be fairly substantial while being entirely reasonable.

A useful measure of a nations economy is how the lower classes are able to afford to live within their means.
No the profits generated in banking isn't reasonable, the margins are excessive the risk is low the tax paid is negligible

Which is why it's the control mechanism of choice for pretty much every government in the world for controlling inflation.

No ocean it is not the most effective way do a bit of your own research come up with your own answers

According to who? Borrowers, (y'know: the ones affected by all these high prices) are happy enough to pay them. They are, of course currently lower than they've been for many decades, and as I keep saying they do have the option of not doing so, an option, as I believe I said that I'd be happy to support.

Its like there is an echo Ocean i can hear the ocean in your shell.
Their is no competition, no choice the current system is hugely protected as their is a huge vested interest in maintaining the status quo
i have repeatedly told you this.

Come up with something new arguments because repeatedly saying the same thing to you and trying to get you to do your own research rather than just sprouting half backed rhetoric that even the most right winged economist thinks is tripe is getting rather boring.

As for OPEC not being involved in price fixing Ocean, it is their sole purpose for existence, it is legal, but it is wrong. But then again i guess you can't see why.
If you also can't see how a market that has no competition that is owned by a few (the banking industry) is not acting to maximize profits by minimising competition well ocean thats just proves you are still a bit wet behind the ears.

[Ocean1]

A useful measure of a nations economy is how the lower classes are able to afford to live within their means.

Can you not see the internal contradiction in that statement mate?

Anywhay, the class word's in play, the one word that ends credible discourse for me.

I don't believe in pixies, either.

[husaberg]

Can you not see the internal contradiction in that statement mate?

Anywhay, the class word's in play, the one word that ends credible discourse for me.

I don't believe in pixies, either.

No i can't society as in the past as it does still now indeed has classes of socioeconomic groups, its a real phenomenon.............

Ocean there is a big wide world out there, Vast oceans of information that will allow you to formulate your own theories
open your eyes and try and see the wood for the trees.......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26041039
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...t-rigging.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-s-agency.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-co...ortgage-fraud/
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07/bu...ents-show.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...0130425?page=4
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...andal/2166857/

[mashman]

The attitude that is inherent with a competitive environment.... people who exalt competition as the only force to drive us forwards are a waste of oxygen.

[mashman]

No i can't society as in the past as it does still now indeed has classes of socioeconomic groups, its a real phenomenon.............

Ocean there is a big wide world out there, Vast oceans of information that will allow you to formulate your own theories
open your eyes and try and see the wood for the trees.......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26041039
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-1...t-rigging.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-s-agency.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/study-co...ortgage-fraud/
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07/bu...ents-show.html
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...0130425?page=4
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...andal/2166857/

I class the 15% surcharge on goods/services over the holidays in exactly the same way... and then some have the gall to claim that people aren't in it for the money.

[Brian d marge]

Inflation as I have posted before, is the quantity of money entering or leaving the system.

it in positive form it drives down the purchasing power of your dollar

a pint ( 600ml) of milk was 8 cents in 1976 , off top of head , using the CPI , your money has lost 90 % of its purchasing power with inflation averaging 6 % ( the RBNZ own web page if you are interested)

The OCR is a very blunt tool that allows money to enter or not enter the system ( through the purchase of bonds etc) thus controlling inflation .

WHICH , should be 0 as all a positive inflation rate is doing is stealing your money. Converting that money into inflation beating assets ( a house assuming it maintains or exceeds the inflation rate in value)

The question is

Why is that money entering the system ?
Either Great aunt Hetty gave it to us , or B: We are an industrious lot and we are selling more shit that we are buying
or C: the printing presses are working ( loans require payment but do , i think, effect the short term inflation rates)

Stephen

[Brian d marge]

As for a different system

Tally sticks worked quite well for 700 odd years , England grew quite well and when the lower classes have money , they SPEND it, and they did , especially after surviving plagues and things

Things were working quite well until the Bank of England decided to back thing with gold ( wonder who controlled the supply of gold , twasnt me or billy no-mates down the road !)

And when you start to distroy the worthless old bits of wood that constituted a currency ..... I wonder what happens

Oh I know

The chimneys over heat !!!






Stephen

[Ocean1]

The attitude that is inherent with a competitive environment.... people who exalt competition as the only force to drive us forwards are a waste of oxygen.

So you're anti-democracy now, along with anti-capitalist?

Actually, now that I think about the thrust of the article, (which btw has absolutely nothing to do with any attitude attributable to competition) most Englishmen I know would agree that the EU should indeed get fucked.

[Ocean1]

One of the local quants I met put me in contact with a film that explains all.http://ghostexchangemovie.com/Don't watch if you think there is a "free market" in the US.NZ/Aus is a little more restrictive when it comes to stocks thankfully.

Oh I was never under the illusion that the US economy represented a free market at any time since independence. Let's face it the biggest effect on any market is the government within who's economy it operates, and no government has seen fit to leave well enough alone since the adoption of universal voting required them to promise more and more in order to buy those votes.

Certainly what we're seeing with these artificial units is being driven by some of the more socialist elements, but it's not really a reaction against government regulation of markets, they simply want the regulation to favour their own ends. Whereas a genuine free market advocate would rather such regulation was limited to those required to keep it free.

[husaberg]

Social market economy


This model was implemented by Alfred Müller-Armack and Ludwig Erhard after World War II in West Germany. The social market economic model is based upon the idea of realizing the benefits of a free market economy, especially economic performance and high supply of goods, while avoiding disadvantages such as market failure, destructive competition, concentration of economic power and anti-social effects of market processes. The aim of the social market economy is to realize greatest prosperity combined with best possible social security. One difference from the free market economy is that the state is not passive, but takes active regulatory measures. The social policy objectives include employment, housing and education policies, as well as a socio-politically motivated balancing of the distribution of income growth. Characteristics of social market economies are a strong competition policy and a contractionary monetary policy. The philosophical background is Neoliberalism or Ordoliberalism.

The main elements of the social market economy in Germany are the following

The social market contains central elements of a free market economy such as private property, free foreign trade, exchange of goods, and free formation of prices.

In contrast to the situation in a free market economy, the state is not passive and actively implements regulative measures.Some elements, such as pension insurance, universal health care and unemployment insurance are part of the social security system. These insurances are funded by a combination of employee contributions, employer contributions and government subsidies. The social policy objectives include employment, housing and education policies, as well as a socio-politically motivated balancing of the distribution of income growth. In addition, there are provisions to restrain the free market (e.g., anti-trust code, laws against the abuse of market power, etc.). These elements help to diminish many of the occurring problems of a free market economy.

Sounds about right to my their must be a degree of fairness views.

Of course it doesn't fit with Oceans perfect free market that so beautifully self regulates

....He doesn't believe in pixies lol
I guess the pixies died of starvation, makes sense as their primary source of food was the cake crumbs that the free market was meant to gracious spill......
i guess its the trickle down theory at work......
http://archives.politicususa.com/201...egulation.html