Waitangi anyone?

[TheDemonLord]

STOP !!!!

You are suggesting that we kill and maim people in other people's unjust wars on the off chance that sometime in the future the other people will fight for us ???

That is so wrong ..

Whilst it might be so wrong - imagine a single Carrier battle group parked in international waters.

Using anti ship missles on fast attack jets, our Navy is wiped out.

Next comes a marine assault with full air superiority to any point of our very VERY expansive coastline.

Backing up the Marine assault is Heavy Armour (Main Battle Tanks) with full air support.

In short - if a foreign power with a full blue water Navy decided to pick a fight with NZ, we would be fucked

[rustyrobot]

I am not sure I understand what you are asking or even that it is relevant ... If you are asking which Imaginary I would kill and die for then my answer is not an Imaginary but the land and the people ...

If you are asking if there are groups who would invade that I might welcome, then the answer is NO, there are not.

Yep, that helps to clarify it. Although, I do wonder about the division of people into outsiders/insiders from an indigenous person in a colonised land. Kei a koe nga kupu mutunga.

I guess I also wonder which land you would die for. Crafar farms?

ANYONE who tries to invade Aotearoa/New Zealand will be fought off. I don't really care about which values or what values ... This is our country - the argument over values is our internal argument - it is not an argument for overseas people to tell us what we do - anyone who tries to butt in with arms will be fought off ...

This is a similar stance to "I disagree with you completely, but will defend your right to say what you say ..."

If you want a better answer you will need to be more specific ..

The question of values comes from me wanting to understand what it is that you are defending. I ask this because from what I read & hear, there is almost no one in this country who agrees with things as they are now. Perhaps we just liked to complain, or perhaps there is something about representative democracy which actually equates to no one at all being entirely happy with decisions made. Are you defending the values of representative democracy, or te tiriti, or the right not/to smack our kids?

Also, when you say 'our country', do you mean... the people who live here? the people who were born here? the people with NZ citizenship? NZ residency? property holdings? those who are eligible to vote?

[rustyrobot]

In short - if a foreign power with a full blue water Navy decided to pick a fight with NZ, we would be fucked

Yeah, but it would be easier to just buy out our land from underneath us. Would just take a little longer to get the desired results is all - less likely to created reprisals from our 'allies' though.

[ellipsis]

- if a foreign power with a full blue water Navy decided to pick a fight with NZ, we would be fucked

...i'm sure they wouldn't need a full blue water navy...a tug a barge and two top dressers converted to drop rocks would get away with it...

[TheDemonLord]

...i'm sure they wouldn't need a full blue water navy...a tug a barge and two top dressers converted to drop rocks would get away with it...

Well, I was being genourous to the NZ Navy....

[Banditbandit]

Who said their wars were unjust? That is why you were asked about values before, pick our allies based on their values, and fight not only for mutual protection, but for a just cause.

I'm sorry - but I will only accept that invading another country is a just cause in a very limited set of circumstances - and the current invasions going on are not in just causes ... neither the invasion of Iraq nor Afghanistan are just causes ...


So - OK, I might accept the rest ... do you think that we should be supporting the values currently exhibited by the US of A ???

[Banditbandit]

Whilst it might be so wrong - imagine a single Carrier battle group parked in international waters.

Using anti ship missles on fast attack jets, our Navy is wiped out.

Next comes a marine assault with full air superiority to any point of our very VERY expansive coastline.

Backing up the Marine assault is Heavy Armour (Main Battle Tanks) with full air support.

In short - if a foreign power with a full blue water Navy decided to pick a fight with NZ, we would be fucked

Yes ... I agree ... but are you suggesting we say "fuck it" and walk away ??? I'd rather die on the beaches a free man ..

[TheDemonLord]

Yes ... I agree ... but are you suggesting we say "fuck it" and walk away ??? I'd rather die on the beaches a free man ..

I am suggesting that I am a realist - fighting in other peoples questionable wars to ensure my continued freedom seems like okay deal, not the best deal, but not the worst either.

[bogan]

I'm sorry - but I will only accept that invading another country is a just cause in a very limited set of circumstances - and the current invasions going on are not in just causes ... neither the invasion of Iraq nor Afghanistan are just causes ...


So - OK, I might accept the rest ... do you think that we should be supporting the values currently exhibited by the US of A ???

Perhaps not in retrospect, but at the time they seemed to be.

The point is, the defense of New Zealand is far more complicated than just popping up from the shrubbery on the shore with a pointy stick and your tongue poking out, and expecting guys with cruise missiles to get all scared and go away.

[ellipsis]

The point is, the defense of New Zealand is far more complicated than just popping up from the shrubbery on the shore with a pointy stick and your tongue poking out, and expecting guys with cruise missiles to get all scared and go away.

...even if we frightened them a bit, for a few seconds?...

[jasonu]

Whilst it might be so wrong - imagine a single Carrier battle group parked in international waters.

Using anti ship missles on fast attack jets, our Navy is wiped out.

Next comes a marine assault with full air superiority to any point of our very VERY expansive coastline.

Backing up the Marine assault is Heavy Armour (Main Battle Tanks) with full air support.

In short - if a foreign power with a full blue water Navy decided to pick a fight with NZ, we would be fucked

You wouldn't need an entire Carrier Group, just one carrier would be more than enough to so the job.

[Bald Eagle]

Remembering of course Americas minimum requirement for any war is "Not in the U S of A" anywhere else is OK though.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[TheDemonLord]

Remembering of course Americas minimum requirement for any war is "Not in the U S of A" anywhere else is OK though.

that could be applie to any other country - generally wars involve a country and Another country...

Except Civil Wars

[ellipsis]

Except Civil Wars

...lets opt for one of them...doesn't sound so disruptive...it would save running down to the beach all the time to see if anyone was coming...

[Banditbandit]

Yep, that helps to clarify it. Although, I do wonder about the division of people into outsiders/insiders from an indigenous person in a colonised land. Kei a koe nga kupu mutunga.

In the face of invaders I make no distinctions ... and it's a small country - and we share whakapapa .. in the widest sense of that - I have Pākehā ancestors as well as Māori ancestors ... we are only 2 degrees of separation - and there's a good chance we are more closely related than most people are aware of ...

I guess I also wonder which land you would die for. Crafar farms?

The sale of the Crafar Farms to the Chinese pissed me off no end .. the Chinese cannot pick up and take the land - that will remain .. they can and do take the profits ... it was a dumb move by a person who only thinks in trader terms ... Sale is not armed invasion - tho' I do get that some of you will disagree and think I am nit-picking ...

The question of values comes from me wanting to understand what it is that you are defending. I ask this because from what I read & hear, there is almost no one in this country who agrees with things as they are now. Perhaps we just liked to complain, or perhaps there is something about representative democracy which actually equates to no one at all being entirely happy with decisions made. Are you defending the values of representative democracy, or te tiriti, or the right not/to smack our kids?

I suppose I am defending our rights to have those arguments ... does that make sense? I value the free exchange of ideas ... I value this country, this land and the people who live in it ... (even if some of the people piss me off ...) I value the diversity ...

Also, when you say 'our country', do you mean... the people who live here? the people who were born here? the people with NZ citizenship? NZ residency? property holdings? those who are eligible to vote?

Hmm people who live here .. people born here, naturalized citizens .. residency is a step on the path to citizenship - so them too ... Property holders? That's a capitalist construct - I'd rather think of citizens in the widest use of the term ... not just those who have "official" citizenship

I suppose I'd say the people who participate in our society ... (with the proviso that taking profits is not participation - so the owners of the Crafar Farms are out ... I would not fight and die for them ...)