NZSBK Round 2 - dispute

[SS90]

Then the rules are proof read and re written by a lawyer or what ever, but as they do not understand our game, the words they choose to use are often still left open to interpretation. The rules need writting by a person who can use a dictionery and knows how to build bikes and motors, so all the grey areas are covered.

Quite right. Although I also believe it is not very difficult to exclude any ambiguity from rule books, particularly when it come to control class engines.

[Billy]

incorrect, I often do a little extra for my customers without charging them, it's building my business and reputation and through that i've a better chance of getting the next job.
KFC don't do a two for one deal because they're feeling generous, it's marketing.

To me there's a set of rules here that are open to interpretation, lock em down, write them betterer.
For example there's a rule stating 'no recording equipment'.
People read it to be 'Oh they're not talking about cameras, they mean all that other data logger shit etc' well do they or don't they want the riders to not run cameras or do they not care, is this an oversight or mean do not run cameras? What's more there has been many vids of 250 production put on the web and has anybody said ANYTHING about it while it was happening either to the competitor or officials, either officially or unofficially???? and that the rule book states 'no recording equipment'

poorly written and open to interpretation.

Pretty simple to work out for yourself,

Have a wee think,Does a camera record anything???? Why yes it does,Ask the immediate past commissioner or the present one what the intent of the rule is,Has anybody mentioned it earlier,NO,But that doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist,If you run the gauntlet long enough you will eventually get caught.

Open to interpretation??? Where about's in the manual does it mention interpretation?Oh yea thats right 22.9 "The roadrace commission shall rule on ANY rule interpretation during the season and notify all competitors" Did anybody ask???? NO

You can sugar coat it anyway you want,But all the info required is available if you ask,Ignorance is no excuse.

[Shaun Harris]

MNZ already has a standing rules committee that is charged with ensuring this happens already,PLUS the board are supposed to proof read them to ratify them before they become active,That system works well doesn't it?

About as well as the Sponorship commitee does I guess

[Paul in NZ]

You guys crack me up.... There is no statement covering a complex machine or class of machine ever written that cannot be mis interpretted, twisted or fudged by those seeking to gain an advantage. If you think a set of simple rules covering motorcycle racing here in NZ can achieve this then I would suggest you abandon actually racing bikes and run the national championship based on who can misinterpret the rules the best. It would save money to as you could just email in the essay...

What is important is the intent of the rule. If that is knowingly circumvented then thats cheating...

Is it any wonder motorcycle racing is not the spectacle it once was? Maybe you should just televise the rules debates? Theres more venom in this than on the track... It could make for good TV...

[budda]

I'm looking forward to seeing a remit insisting that all production class bikes be road registered- and legal - and must be ridden to the meeting.

Edit - And raced on the tyres they rode in on......

BULLSEYE - Happy to present that for your consideration as Commissioner - whats your address ?

[jellywrestler]

Pretty simple to work out for yourself,

Have a wee think,Does a camera record anything???? Why yes it does,Ask the immediate past commissioner or the present one what the intent of the rule is,Has anybody mentioned it earlier,NO,But that doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist,If you run the gauntlet long enough you will eventually get caught.

Open to interpretation??? Where about's in the manual does it mention interpretation?Oh yea thats right 22.9 "The roadrace commission shall rule on ANY rule interpretation during the season and notify all competitors" Did anybody ask???? NO

You can sugar coat it anyway you want,But all the info required is available if you ask,Ignorance is no excuse.

not trying to sugarcoat anything Billy. There are people out there who think that this doesn't apply to cameras and is an oversight, there 'WAS' no shortage of footage from 250 proddie on you tube and no-one said anything, call it apathy or are people generally making up there own minds here? there's a list of things not allowed including data loggers, should cameras not be put on that list too to clear it up.

Sadly the ability, or want, to read rules these days is lacking and while you state no recording equipment and it clearly means it people are thinking that it doesn't apply to cameras. As usual we have to spoon feed people, but if that's what we have to do that's what we have to do.

[Grumph]

You guys crack me up.... There is no statement covering a complex machine or class of machine ever written that cannot be mis interpretted, twisted or fudged by those seeking to gain an advantage. If you think a set of simple rules covering motorcycle racing here in NZ can achieve this then I would suggest you abandon actually racing bikes and run the national championship based on who can misinterpret the rules the best. It would save money to as you could just email in the essay...

What is important is the intent of the rule. If that is knowingly circumvented then thats cheating...

Is it any wonder motorcycle racing is not the spectacle it once was? Maybe you should just televise the rules debates? Theres more venom in this than on the track... It could make for good TV...

I debated whether to reply...nothing else to do, sorry.

i call bullshit on the intent of the rule being paramount...check with any lawyer, it's the written word which is paramount.

However, ellipsis sums it up quite well, yes clubs and officials are left hung out to dry by badly written rules. the rules committee needs an overhaul. Asking MNZ for clarification in the middle of a meeting on a Sunday isn't really an option either...
i'll say it again, with clarification - the rules committee needs to contain engine builders as well as bike builders, racers and sponsors.
Often it's only the guys actually doing the work - including machining - who know what is required to make machinery last in race conditions. Sponsors and manufacturers may want to race dead stock bikes but if it's already known they won't last or have known faults, there's got to be allowances made. Unfortunately, I've got to include suspension reworkers in the picture too..
So it's back to easily policed open classes...

[budda]

Hmmm, isn't that one hell of an "interpretation" from our ex-commissioner? Seriously, how the fuck can it be called "entry level" when we have EJC Champion Jake Lewis racing in the class? Or hot shot's from Australia flown in to compete in an "entry level" class despite winning it the year before and competing at a far higher level in Australia? You are seriously taking the piss with that statement.


.

The Class was specifically designed from Day 1 to be an entry-level Class, where the emphasis is on Rider development rather than the wallet-racing that most others inevitably turn into when Mr Nearly feels hard done by when Mr Moretalented carves his arse on some shitter that shouldn't get anywhere near him

It was given National Champ status so there was a POINT to it - without that it would be just another Club class that could get bastardised by the hand-wringers dumbing down our Sport - same rules for all, everywhere ........
in theory at LEAST, cant get fairer than that ..........

[SS90]

Pretty simple to work out for yourself,

Have a wee think,Does a camera record anything???? Why yes it does,Ask the immediate past commissioner or the present one what the intent of the rule is,Has anybody mentioned it earlier,No

I hate to be a pedant, but no recording equipment means well, no recording equipment. Foregoing little Johnny's big moment on YouTube is the price that has to be paid to remove ambiguity.

[Grumph]

BULLSEYE - Happy to present that for your consideration as Commissioner - whats your address ?

You know that quite well i think....now i'm officially retired, i'll give it some consideration.

[Billy]

I debated whether to reply...nothing else to do, sorry.

i call bullshit on the intent of the rule being paramount...check with any lawyer, it's the written word which is paramount.

However, ellipsis sums it up quite well, yes clubs and officials are left hung out to dry by badly written rules. the rules committee needs an overhaul. Asking MNZ for clarification in the middle of a meeting on a Sunday isn't really an option either...
i'll say it again, with clarification - the rules committee needs to contain engine builders as well as bike builders, racers and sponsors.
Often it's only the guys actually doing the work - including machining - who know what is required to make machinery last in race conditions. Sponsors and manufacturers may want to race dead stock bikes but if it's already known they won't last or have known faults, there's got to be allowances made. Unfortunately, I've got to include suspension reworkers in the picture too..
So it's back to easily policed open classes...

Much easier to just dump any production based classes and go with Formula classes restricted by capacity and fuel only though,

The current structure just does not offer a fair and even playing feild for all.

[oyster]

The Class was specifically designed from Day 1 to be an entry-level Class, where the emphasis is on Rider development rather than the wallet-racing that most others inevitably turn into when Mr Nearly feels hard done by when Mr Moretalented carves his arse on some shitter that shouldn't get anywhere near him

It was given National Champ status so there was a POINT to it - without that it would be just another Club class that could get bastardised by the hand-wringers dumbing down our Sport - same rules for all, everywhere ........
in theory at LEAST, cant get fairer than that ..........

In the earlier post I explained where "day 1" was. The 250 was intended as a alternative technical equivalent to the 150 two stroke in Streetstock. The worry was the 150 would strike obsolesence problems. We were planning ahead so the highly successful Streetstock formula, with age based non nat championships (sportsfotoz cup, mcleary cup) would not be jeopardised. Instead, much more recently, the 250 was splintered off into a national class to try and fulfill a client base that didn't exist, the people that might have gone for it already having Protwin and 125GP. And giving the raspberry "just another club class" stinks. 98% of the members ride these classes, more importantly it's where they acquire the skill to prepare for championship competition.

[jellywrestler]

I hate to be a pedant, but no recording equipment means well, no recording equipment. Foregoing little Johnny's big moment on YouTube is the price that has to be paid to remove ambiguity.

my point is people are reading the rule and thinking oh it doesn't mean cameras, and running them and nouts being done about it. then they're reading another rule and.....
here we are today.

[budda]

In the earlier post I explained where "day 1" was. The 250 was intended as a alternative technical equivalent to the 150 two stroke in Streetstock. The worry was the 150 would strike obsolesence problems. We were planning ahead so the highly successful Streetstock formula, with age based non nat championships (sportsfotoz cup, mcleary cup) would not be jeopardised. Instead, much more recently, the 250 was splintered off into a national class to try and fulfill a client base that didn't exist, the people that might have gone for it already having Protwin and 125GP. And giving the raspberry "just another club class" stinks. 98% of the members ride these classes, more importantly it's where they acquire the skill to prepare for championship competition.

Pete - you know as well as I do what the intent was for the introduction of the 250's

And my comment re "club class" was NOT, repeat NOT a denigration - Club level racing and racers are where our future Champs are now - but it remains a fundamental truth that without a set of rules that apply NATIONALLY, Clubs will drift off onto their own tangent by emphasing some things more than their neighbour Club - end result, different rules driven by different priorities. NOT a criticism, just a statement that time has proven accurate

[jellywrestler]

Pete - you know as well as I do what the intent was for the introduction of the 250's

And my comment re "club class" was NOT, repeat NOT a denigration - Club level racing and racers are where our future Champs are now - but it remains a fundamental truth that without a set of rules that apply NATIONALLY, Clubs will drift off onto their own tangent by emphasing some things more than their neighbour Club - end result, different rules driven by different priorities. NOT a criticism, just a statement that time has proven accurate

despite whatever has happened now the introduction of the 250 proddie class again was a great move by mnz and all those who made it happen. bringing luke burgess in also gave our competitors something to base themselves on as a benchmark and proved that this wasn't just a class to sweep up the leftover riders, i would have loved to see a supersport or superbike rider in the mix it all helps to give the sport credibility. ok so now one bike MAY have been naughty, don't fucking throw the baby out with the bath water, clean the fucking water and lets watch this class for what it is, closer possible racing. The dev class is great but it also reigns in the bikes that don't match, like F3.
look at the presentation of the 250 machines, it is well worthy of national class status and champions there will rise further up in the future.