Schools and family expectations

[Mike.Gayner]

Your post is fair enough but I think you may have misread or misinterpreted Banditbandit somehow!

Yeah upon re-reading, I think I got a bit worked up over nothing.

[HenryDorsetCase]

I got sucked into that whole "go to University and get a degree and get shit tons of money" bullshit.

I would advise anyone leaving school now to go out and get a trade. You get paid (shit pay, but better than nothing) to study, you learn something you can pretty much always do, and when you are finished you earn decent coin, and have no debt, and if you are any good and motivated you can start your own business. If you are any good at that, hard working and a little bit lucky, you will buy and sell your University educated brother after about 20 years in each respective game. That is anecdotal, but a direct comparison with my brother and I.

Slightly OT maybe. I dont recall my parents ever being very interested in what we were doing. Which was good. I liked to read a lot and play about on pushbikes and stuff. And split firewood (no really). I doubt todays parents would let their tiny little 12 year old loose with an axe....

[Banditbandit]

The attitude that you're taking suggests that you believe we've reached the pinnacle of our ability after college, and if you didn't achieve well in college you're undeserving of higher education. That reeks of elitism and thankfully the evidence for higher education is so strong that recent governments haven't listened to obnoxious fuckwits like you.

No - you have misinterpreted what I am saying - I do not believe that if you do not do well in college you are undeserving of education. The fact that people do not do well is more a reflection on the colleges and secondary education than it is on the students who do not achieve. And I do not believe that Universities and their like are the places where knowledge resides. "Experts" work in tertiary education - parasites who think they should be paid to think what they want and not be responsible to the people who pay their wages - the taxpayer (I'm about as popular in tertiary education circles as I am with you right now!)

Elitism would be a rather difficult position for me to maintain as I work in a Māori tertiary environment and our basic position is that the secondary school system has failed our people ... they have not done well in college, but we take them, each them and graduate time.

Equally, I was forced to enrol a person in a degree programme who had been assessed for a sheltered workshop. He was more than 20-years old - and there was no way that we could prevent him enrolling. I was told that the best thing we could do was enrol him and fail him as quickly as possible .. I said that was unethical - but there was nothing I could do to stop the enrolment ... (he did fail).

I assisted a woman who left school at 13 years old and had five kids before she was 20 gain a post-graduate qualification. I did so not by lowering the standards, but by helping her achieve the standards. She is now a teacher in tertiary environment.

I will teach anyone who walks into my classroom ... but I believe that you put people in the right place for their situation - and sometimes that might mean doing so bridging or foundation courses BEFORE they enrol in a degree, not matter how old or young they are. I do not believe that age alone equips people for degree level study ...

My brother and myself hated college - he left after fifth form and I left after sixth. Both of us bummed around doing various things for a few years, and both of us ended up deciding to go to uni in our 20s. My brother initially studied physics and astronomy, before moving to a computer science degree and achieving outstanding marks. I studied law before moving away from that and settled on accountancy and business. Now my brother is a software developer for a major company and I'm an accountant-turned-finance manager. Not bad roles for a couple of blokes in their late 20's.

My own career as a student is probably even more checkered than that ... but yes, I applaud your achievements. I was a dropout bum until my late 20s - that's when I got back into education and suddenly had a career (not the one I'm on now.)

Neither of us had any real entry credentials - my brother had to study some college-level maths before being allowed into the physics programme.

See - he did some sort of bridging course rather than just go straight into the degree ..

Thank fuck people like you don't get to horde higher education for themselves.

I resent the accusation - but I will forgive that because you really do know nothing about me or my thoughts. I'd blow up our current tertiary structure if I could (I'm the terrorist they let in the door with the bomb) - I'd open it up to other people who can't get there (many for economic reasons ) But I would not lower standards, and I resent the implication that is what we are doing. I would stop the gatekeeping that I see occurring ... and which I think you are refering to.

Oh, and more to the point of this thread, I agree entirely with the general sentiment. Our parents were fairly hands-off, which worked out well for us (though it looked a bit shaky in our late-teens). I will be letting my kids find their own way, but I will likely guide them towards trades because that's where the good, honest , well-paying work will be in the future.

That's a good start. When they are ready to move in a different direction we will be here ..

[Banditbandit]

Yeah upon re-reading, I think I got a bit worked up over nothing.

OK .. I wrote the previous post between meetings and in and around other discussions .. and did not see this until after I clicked "Submit reply". Thank you for that.

[bogan]

It's about options, make sure your kid gets a damn good education, so when they are mature enough to choose their own career, they still have a wide choice of options available to them. Not only that, but have a good understanding of what those options might entail.

[mashman]

make sure your kid gets a damn good education

With knuckle dusters and a baseball bat? What about what they want to do?

[bogan]

What about what they want to do?

That is what it is about, read the whole post.

[mashman]

That is what it is about, read the whole post.

Ok, as you're obviously on your period...

Make sure your kids

Interference.

[Blackbird]

To make your way in the world and be a success, whether it requires tertiary education or not really boils down to personal motivation. Our 3 kids went to a low decile school in Tokoroa. Whilst the standard of teaching might not have been as good as in the bigger centres, they all had great attitudes to work and accepting responsibility for their own actions. All 3 of them went to university and have great careers. As you might expect, we're enormously proud of them, not because they're well-educated but because the effort they put in on their own behalf. We certainly weren't pushy parents but just gave them support when they needed it. The rest they did for themselves.

[neels]

With knuckle dusters and a baseball bat? What about what they want to do?

With knuckle dusters and a baseball bat? What about what they want to do?

I agree there is nothing wrong with kids choosing their own destiny, however there is nothing wrong with having a reasoned discussion about options that are available before they commit to something that will affect them in the future. After that, well it's up to them and they get to live with the results of their decision.

I would advise anyone leaving school now to go out and get a trade. You get paid (shit pay, but better than nothing) to study, you learn something you can pretty much always do, and when you are finished you earn decent coin, and have no debt, and if you are any good and motivated you can start your own business. If you are any good at that, hard working and a little bit lucky, you will buy and sell your University educated brother after about 20 years in each respective game. That is anecdotal, but a direct comparison with my brother and I.

Slightly OT maybe. I dont recall my parents ever being very interested in what we were doing. Which was good. I liked to read a lot and play about on pushbikes and stuff. And split firewood (no really). I doubt todays parents would let their tiny little 12 year old loose with an axe....

My parents were never that interested in what I was doing either, seem to have survived alright so far without ending up dead, a drug addict or in prison.

As for getting a trade, that's seldom a bad idea, although the thought of still being on the tools at 60+ when you're buggered doesn't appeal much.

[mashman]

I agree there is nothing wrong with kids choosing their own destiny, however there is nothing wrong with having a reasoned discussion about options that are available before they commit to something that will affect them in the future. After that, well it's up to them and they get to live with the results of their decision.

I was jus funnin massa... yeah I agree with you. The best we can do is support them and hope they don't fuck up. Although it'd be nice if society was structured in such a way that they can take a few years out after school to consider what they'd actually like to do... that and when they change their mind it's be nice if they just could....... ach, dreams are free

[Akzle]

survived alright so far without ending up dead, a drug addict or in prison.

what??!!
I did all of those things and...//


...o wait. I see your point....

[PrincessBandit]

Exactly. I think that parents are intuitively (let's steal that word) understanding that education system is continually being dumbed down .....

I certainly feel that in my chosen teaching subject (music) there is a significant trend downward from when I was a high school student in the 70s. The amount of stuff we had to learn, and be prepared for with School C etc. at the end of each year, was considerably more than I see many coping with at NCEA Level 1 (school c in old speak). In fact, I was just bitching about this with a couple of my colleagues the other day, so I'll just step down from the hobbyhorse and back away quietly...

[MisterD]

I do not believe that the tertiary sector is being "dumbed down" - yes we have to accept people onto SOME degree programmes (like BAs) who probably would not meet any academic requirement, but they get in because they are 20+ years old ... BUT we do not have to pass them .. and I've failed quite a few in my time ...

What has been the drive in Tertiary education over the last 30+ years? To get as many people through University as possible, regardless of the quality of the degree (yes, talk to anyone in Industry recruit the "product").

What has been the end result? A devaluation of the Bachelor degree and young people with a shit-load of debt.

And Science? A proper degree? A proper subject? Jeez - that demonstrates a massive misunderstanding of the nature of knowledge.

Ernst Mach said that to be a great scientist (and he was) required "intuition and a high level of conceptual skills". Einstein (and he was also a great scientist) said much the same thing ...

Do you think they will develop those skills counting fruit flies in test tubes? (Yes, I did start my university studies in Science)

I "missunderstand the nature of knowledge", and you diss a Science degree by giving an example of something that I did in 'O' Level biology?

I might, given that I have a BSc in Physics, be biased, but don't expect me to believe that a BCom in Marketing, a BA in Art history or a PhD in Political Science are the equivalent of a BSc or a BEng.

I got sucked into that whole "go to University and get a degree and get shit tons of money" bullshit.

I would advise anyone leaving school now to go out and get a trade.

Exactly what I was saying about the devaluation of the Degree. If I had my time again, I'd have been a sparky rather than do the Physics degree...

[HenryDorsetCase]

With knuckle dusters and a baseball bat? What about what they want to do?

When I get a 3D printer the first thing I am going to make is a set of hard plastic "brass" knuckles.

because you know.... science