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Thread: XP users, time to ditch Internet Explorer!

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMOKEU View Post
    I don't know why people are so sentimental about Windows XP.
    My office machine runs XP, it was a top end workstation six years ago and it wants absolutely nothing in performance compared to a modern good business machine for what I use it for. I've got plugins for CAD systems that simply won't work on an "upgrade".

    Nonetheless I've just spent over $6k on a new machine, office and a couple of CAD app updates. The drop in productivity is going to hurt until I get back up to speed.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by p.dath View Post
    I'm almost the same. I got sick of Windows 8, so over Easter I converted to Ubuntu Desktop. I found LibreOffice has been more than good enough that I haven't needed Microsoft Office back. After that, I found about 90% of the applications I used have native Ubuntu versions already, so the conversion was relatively painless.

    I currently have Wine installed, but it is not being used for any applications (as far as I am aware ...).
    I use Ubuntu for all things except those I need windows... like connecting to work, playing games etc. Actual home life I prefer Ubuntu, there are a few challenges but a lot less bloatware and better resource control, less crashes etc.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    My office machine runs XP, it was a top end workstation six years ago and it wants absolutely nothing in performance compared to a modern good business machine for what I use it for. I've got plugins for CAD systems that simply won't work on an "upgrade".

    Nonetheless I've just spent over $6k on a new machine, office and a couple of CAD app updates. The drop in productivity is going to hurt until I get back up to speed.
    You can always sandbox or virtualise a copy of your working desktop and run it on your new desktop for those things that do not work at a host level.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dog View Post
    You can always sandbox or virtualise a copy of your working desktop and run it on your new desktop for those things that do not work at a host level.
    Other than the security crappola if you're all interwebed, what are the benefits of doing such a thing on a machine that is running perfectly fine as is and doesn't/won't need any new software installed that is incompatible with the current OS?

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMOKEU View Post
    I don't know why people are so sentimental about Windows XP. Not many other software development companies offer free support to cheap, consumer level software for 13 years. Get rid of the fucking XP, and move on with the times. MS hasn't made money off XP in a very long time, and they should have killed it off many years ago because it still costs them money to support obsolete software which would be better spent on supporting modern software instead of people who insist on using archaic software that has little, if any relevance in the modern world.

    If a machine came out with XP, then it's probably far too old and slow to serve any purpose in the modern world anyway, except for maybe something like a file server or for playing classic games on a non internet connected PC.
    Your argument makes perfect sense to a software developer. It makes absolutely no sense to a business. Users do not walk in every day to play with their fun new OS. An OS is a means to an end, a way to work with files, data etc.

    We (as a contract IT company) have compatibility problems between Microsoft Internet Explorer, Microsoft CRM and Microsoft Servers amongst our clients. That's all Microsoft software and they don't even play happily, just wait until we add in non Microsoft software. As mentioned, CAD, CNC and other hardware (which makes desktop PC costs look like chump change) don't move nearly as quickly, drivers, even x86 vs x64 is a fun game and we've been slowly moving towards 64bit for 5-6 years. I know exactly why Microsoft wants a new OS every 3 years (money, licencing etc) but in reality, even the shift to Win7 isn't complete across our board and I started testing in 2009 the day before release. The costs that would be incurred to shift to every OS is simply laughable and won't happen. These aren't even large companies. A multinational I can't mention (occasionally we're called in) was running on NT last visit a few years ago and just starting to test shifting to Vista. Of course, Vista was a flop, and the project was abandoned. I hope they've migrated since, but who knows.

    Shifting platform to some flavour of Linux etc has been thought about, but everything is Windows based, including the remote support software, remote access, databases (ok, some databases aren't on Windows already)... yeah, ain't going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    The drop in productivity is going to hurt until I get back up to speed.
    This is the problem basically... When clients can lose 5 figures in a day (and I'm sure plenty can lose more than that) because stuff isn't working... we tread carefully when changes are made.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazz View Post
    Other than the security crappola if you're all interwebed, what are the benefits of doing such a thing on a machine that is running perfectly fine as is and doesn't/won't need any new software installed that is incompatible with the current OS?
    Less infrastructure.
    Free up some desk space.
    Less power consumption.
    Hardware can be repurposed to being a network drive or ftp server if you don't want to "waste the hardware".
    You can have a complete backup on another location that you just fire up if your hardware gets hit by a stray act of god. No Downtime. No restoring files. Just point your player at the files and start it up.
    You can take a fresh backup before trying changes.
    Software isolation if you are also the person who does accounts, wages, banking.
    You can also set up a seperate sandbox on the same hardware for more nefarious activities such as kiwibiker.co.nz that has no access to the files of the other systems just in case.

    The one downside is if you need a physical port not provided by your new hardware.

    You can power it up when you want it suspend it when you don't to avoid resource consumption and instant on it when you do.


    If on the other hand the one and only purpose is CAD / Vinyl plotter cutter or other such beastie then you will probably still want to keep your xp but then you need to evaluate do you need internet access and if so should it be via IE? What are your security precautions?
    This becomes an even more important question if out of work hours you also use it for doing your accounting, taxes, banking, kiwibikering... because at this point the question is about the cost to your business if your data was lost.
    How much money would you lose if someone gained access to your internet banking?
    How much business would you lose if someone messed up your programs and files for fun? What if it took you say 10 days to get back to working?

    I could go on but then this post would put you to sleep, if it has not already you are doing better than most of the the people I have set something up for.

    IF on the other hand there is no business critical data or software on this box and you have good backups of all your personal files... there is no benefit at all.

    Edit: A sandbox is useful for anyone who has reason to visit sites that may not be friendly... or that may carry social diseases. Infected, made changes that wrecked it? Restart and all is as it was built.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazz View Post
    Other than the security crappola if you're all interwebed, what are the benefits of doing such a thing on a machine that is running perfectly fine as is and doesn't/won't need any new software installed that is incompatible with the current OS?
    I thought this reason deserved its own post.


    As time goes by it will become harder and harder to get stuff to drive older cad systems etc, taking the time to make the leap before it is too late means they can take the time to get setup before they have to.

  8. #23
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    A short example of how this is useful:
    I upgraded to Win 8.
    I put a copy of my laptop as a vm on my desktop for those times it is costing my money or time to be using win8.
    Time critical issue comes along? Spark up win7 and do what i need.
    No productivity lost.
    When item is no longer time critical work out how to do the same thing in Win8.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dog View Post
    A short example of how this is useful:
    I upgraded to Win 8.
    I put a copy of my laptop as a vm on my desktop for those times it is costing my money or time to be using win8.
    Time critical issue comes along? Spark up win7 and do what i need.
    No productivity lost.
    When item is no longer time critical work out how to do the same thing in Win8.
    Unpleasant memories of a dos envelope on a unix server. It was the boss's idea of how save money by not buying the 486 machine and video card I'd said I needed to run Acad12.

    He really really thought he knew better...
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tazz View Post
    Yup. One joinery place I used to work at was all XP. All the expensive CAD software was made for XP, all the software for the CNC machine (a slightly important bit of kit not to have any downtime on), XP, the software that tracked jobs and hours that was hooked into the accounting software, XP. Fark going through all that, especially for a small or medium sized business that doesn't have their own IT department and has to $$$ outsource $$$ on top of the software upgrades (if any are available), then the retraining as they will all be different etc etc, and all for a bunch of features they don't need, want or use.
    Provided those machines stay isolated from the outside world and parts can still be obtained to keep them running there's no reason they can't be kept going for a few years yet.

    However, this makes changing to new stuff even more challenging. Basically, it's only cost effective when all the big expensive machinery they're driving etc is replaced. Then, for a while, you end up running 2 different systems side by side until the new gear, the operators and everyone else is up to speed.
    Zen wisdom: No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously. - obviously had KB in mind when he came up with that gem

    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMOKEU View Post
    The UI on Windows XP is horrible and cumbersome to use compared to 7 or 8.* with ClassicShell. Windows 8.1 + ClassicShell = best desktop Windows OS ever.
    Wrong way around. WinXP's UI is simple and uncluttered, whereas Win7 and especially Win8 (even with ClassicShell) are cluttered and just generally fucken awful.

    You have to remember a lot of stuff doesn't run on 24 inch flat screens either. There's still lots of machines in workshops etc that are still on 17 inch CRTs, in dusty environments with lots of vibration and EM noise.
    Zen wisdom: No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously. - obviously had KB in mind when he came up with that gem

    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dog View Post
    I use Ubuntu for all things except those I need windows... like connecting to work, playing games etc. Actual home life I prefer Ubuntu, there are a few challenges but a lot less bloatware and better resource control, less crashes etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mental Trousers View Post
    Wrong way around. WinXP's UI is simple and uncluttered, whereas Win7 and especially Win8 (even with ClassicShell) are cluttered and just generally fucken awful.

    You have to remember a lot of stuff doesn't run on 24 inch flat screens either. There's still lots of machines in workshops etc that are still on 17 inch CRTs, in dusty environments with lots of vibration and EM noise.
    With XP, you can't just open the start menu and start typing the first few characters of the application you want, you have to manually seek it through the start menu which is a bitch of a job in comparison. And, the 'show desktop' icon is small, and not on the bottom right of the system tray, which takes longer to show the desktop. Those are just 2 annoyances with the UI. Windows 7 and 8 fix that.

    I find the general UI of 7 and 8 to be a massive improvement in usabilty over XP. I do hate the full screen apps on 8 with a mouse and keyboard though, so a quick alt+tab minimizes it at least.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mental Trousers View Post
    Provided those machines stay isolated from the outside world and parts can still be obtained to keep them running there's no reason they can't be kept going for a few years yet.

    However, this makes changing to new stuff even more challenging. Basically, it's only cost effective when all the big expensive machinery they're driving etc is replaced. Then, for a while, you end up running 2 different systems side by side until the new gear, the operators and everyone else is up to speed.
    The cost of software obsolescence.

    I used to play with several XY cutting tables. They were driven by a modified Acad batch file (*.rbt?) designed for plotting. Autodesk shit was rarely reverse compatible, Acad 12 ran on 386s fine but there was something about the drivers that didn't work with later hardware, and nor did Acad 2000 have the same function. So around 2001ish I had to try to find 386 boxes to hold as spares. Think I found 4, last I heard they were down to the last one.

    Was it you that was playing with Rhino5? That's one of the updates I've sprung for. And it's almost a decades worth of Rhino and Flamingo toolbar layouts and plugins that the change, (mostly to do with the change to 64bit) will lose.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dog View Post
    Less infrastructure.
    Free up some desk space.
    Less power consumption.
    Hardware can be repurposed to being a network drive or ftp server if you don't want to "waste the hardware".
    You can have a complete backup on another location that you just fire up if your hardware gets hit by a stray act of god. No Downtime. No restoring files. Just point your player at the files and start it up.
    You can take a fresh backup before trying changes.
    Software isolation if you are also the person who does accounts, wages, banking.
    You can also set up a seperate sandbox on the same hardware for more nefarious activities such as kiwibiker.co.nz that has no access to the files of the other systems just in case.

    The one downside is if you need a physical port not provided by your new hardware.

    You can power it up when you want it suspend it when you don't to avoid resource consumption and instant on it when you do.


    If on the other hand the one and only purpose is CAD / Vinyl plotter cutter or other such beastie then you will probably still want to keep your xp but then you need to evaluate do you need internet access and if so should it be via IE? What are your security precautions?
    This becomes an even more important question if out of work hours you also use it for doing your accounting, taxes, banking, kiwibikering... because at this point the question is about the cost to your business if your data was lost.
    How much money would you lose if someone gained access to your internet banking?
    How much business would you lose if someone messed up your programs and files for fun? What if it took you say 10 days to get back to working?

    I could go on but then this post would put you to sleep, if it has not already you are doing better than most of the the people I have set something up for.

    IF on the other hand there is no business critical data or software on this box and you have good backups of all your personal files... there is no benefit at all.

    Edit: A sandbox is useful for anyone who has reason to visit sites that may not be friendly... or that may carry social diseases. Infected, made changes that wrecked it? Restart and all is as it was built.
    Few I didn't know about but mostly as I thought. Cheers for the details.
    In the case of the company I was talking about I'm not sure what they do regarding interweb banking. That is the one thing I get nervous about regarding security on the work computers (I find it less worrisome for personal banking. An empty account is a safe account right? ). But that's a whole other topic.

    And yeah, sure it may hold you back from the latest and greatest but it really depends on the industry and it's growth in tech. Some things come in leaps and bounds constantly, others only little things here and there and then a big leap every now and again. So many variables!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    Was it you that was playing with Rhino5?
    Wasn't me that you were talking to but I've been messing with that. Got someone to take a snapshot while I was hard at it.


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