Cunliffe's constituent Liu?

[Robert Taylor]

Pot kettle rofl

Corporate welfare doesn't exist? All of those banks that fucked the world went under? Pulease.

Ah yes, crying tall poppy in a vane attempt to justify one's taking more out than you know you should be. S'ok, your secret's safe with me and don't worry about me being envious as you offer absolutely nothing for me to be envious over.

Aside from the combative nature of their interaction I can see a lot of merit in what Ocean is saying but also Mash has some fair points from time to time.
Ocean, I thank you sincerely for the business you have done with me, without customers I wouldnt have paid employees. Without the ''business sector'' being the engine room of the economy we would be in a sorry and medieval state. Business should be allowed to prosper and not be penalised excessively for doing so. With the qualification that we dont want an economy that is heavily weighted towards speculative income with banks and corporates totally out of control.

[Ocean1]

Corporate welfare doesn't exist? All of those banks that fucked the world went under? Pulease.

And who's fault is that? Same old shit, bunch of greedy cunts spending someone else's money. I just wish the govt would reimburse positive tax contributors when the shit hits the fan through overspending by tax beneficiaries.

Ah yes, crying tall poppy in a vane attempt to justify one's taking more out than you know you should be. S'ok, your secret's safe with me and don't worry about me being envious as you offer absolutely nothing for me to be envious over.

I'm not taking more out than I should be. It's the arseholes that are that cause the problems, as I've been pointing out to you.

And for someone who's not envious you do a fucking good job of whining like a pork chop because others have shit you reckon they shouldn't. Fuck off to wherever you learned that shit was OK, 'cause all it does hereabouts is make you look a greedy cunt.

[Ocean1]

Aside from the combative nature of their interaction I can see a lot of merit in what Ocean is saying but also Mash has some fair points from time to time.

Monkeys. Shakespear.

Ocean, I thank you sincerely for the business you have done with me, without customers I wouldnt have paid employees. Without the ''business sector'' being the engine room of the economy we would be in a sorry and medieval state. Business should be allowed to prosper and not be penalised excessively for doing so. With the qualification that we dont want an economy that is heavily weighted towards speculative income with banks and corporates totally out of control.

De Nada, Robert. Good job done well.

Aye, as I said earlier there's far too many that refuse to believe that without at least the minimum of free market principles their lives would be far shorter and a damned sight less enjoyable.

Qualification noted. But consider that if govt constructed rules appropriately then it wouldn't be possible to behave unethically within the law. And allow that those with savings have a right to freely negotiate loans.

[mada]

That's pretty much exactly what happened until recently isn't it? In spite of, as you point out some pretty serious disincentives to do so the cream of NZ's producers fucked off overseas. How much tax did we make from that lot? You have the smell of one who doesn't change his opinion in the face of evidence to the contrary.



Ignoring the schoolboy rhetoric, you're apparently wrong. Not only do all of those polls you claim are so inaccurate disagree with you but more specifically so did Wednesday's stuff poll, which in answer to the question "do you agree with Labour's policy to raise tax on income over $150k to 36%" answered "No, they pay enough already".

For what it's worth I agree, what possible reason would anyone have for demanding more from the 9% that already supply over 70% of tax revenue?

You'd have to be a right greedy bastard.

The only "producers" who fucked off overseas moved to China, where wages were a pittance - do you suggest we have no minimum wage and lower our standards to keep these "cream" employers?

The bulk of the people who left NZ for AUS/UK fell into two categories. 1) Working class/Middle class who were looking for better wages and had skills that could get them better money in Aus.. a lot of these jobs were just in labouring, which is why Aus has so many Maori there now, because these guys could A) not find enough work in NZ B) were paid a pittance compared to what Aus offered. B) graduates who either could not find work in NZ for their jobs or the wages were to shit compared to the interest/loans they had to pay back.

Very few if any people left NZ because of "Tax"... the types of people to do that would be the Owen Glenns, Kim Dotcoms, and Fay Richwhites of NZ and if they all left the country we would be much better for it! Couldn't care if we don't get as much from them, because according to you lot they all do their darnest to avoid tax anyway and these guys contrib nothing to our society at all - so no big fucking loss.

Those polls are trolls.

Sure most people don't want TAX increase. Ask how many of them wanted GST to go up by 2.5% eh?

It's gonna have to increase soon anyway, all us youngens have to pay for the promises and debts of you oldies (eg. the pension) who had the state hand everything out on a plate only to turn around and sell it off and charge us younger ones for it. Privatised education and student loans for primary school coming probably coming soon, thanks ACT and Nats.

[mada]

Aside from the combative nature of their interaction I can see a lot of merit in what Ocean is saying but also Mash has some fair points from time to time.
Ocean, I thank you sincerely for the business you have done with me, without customers I wouldnt have paid employees. Without the ''business sector'' being the engine room of the economy we would be in a sorry and medieval state. Business should be allowed to prosper and not be penalised excessively for doing so. With the qualification that we dont want an economy that is heavily weighted towards speculative income with banks and corporates totally out of control.

I don't think you will find anyone that has a problem with "business".... most kiwis will have at least one relative and friend who owns and operates a small or medium sized business and I agree they are the lifeblood of NZ. Increasing tax on the top bracket however does sweet fuck all for them. As very few if any of those small businesses have people earning "taxable" incomes over $150,000.

In a couple of years time I will be earning $150,000 - $200,000 easy. Paying an extra 3% income tax will mean sweet fuck all to me as I can live within my means quite easily - even on a quarter of that. If it means society continues to function, I'd rather see taxes increase and people have their needs met - public education, public health, public roads, support for those who lose their jobs etc. than the ALTERNATIVE.

Unequal societies are not healthy ones, you only need to look at the States where not only do the poorest Americans have lower life expectancies than most other Western countries, but their richest do too - because in unequal countries where helping others and life has a lower value placed on it you get more crime and more preventable deaths.

[mada]

Monkeys. Shakespear.



De Nada, Robert. Good job done well.

Aye, as I said earlier there's far too many that refuse to believe that without at least the minimum of free market principles their lives would be far shorter and a damned sight less enjoyable.

Qualification noted. But consider that if govt constructed rules appropriately then it wouldn't be possible to behave unethically within the law. And allow that those with savings have a right to freely negotiate loans.

Certain principles work yes. But the reality is, just like socialism - the market is undermined by human greed. The principles are flawed on the basis that the interests of the players involved are different to the aims/theory of the principles. It's not in a businesses interest to have a good market with lots of competition, informed buyers, easy access to the market - this means less profit for them, more struggle to make ends meet, less time and money spent on expanding their business. Thats why at the most basic level of our iconic "farmers markets" which are probably the closest thing in the country to a "free market" in action - there are restrictions on the number of sellers for products so those involved can maintain monopolies.

And how do you regulate the banks and people to behave "ethically"? It's in their interests for everyone to be up to their eye balls in debt borrowed from them... they benefit when interest rates are low - so people buy up large on property, and then when they increase and they start increasing the returns on mortgages/call in for those mortgages.

It would not be in the banks interests to subject themselves to market principles - eg. putting all their mortgagee sales up at the same time - increasing supply would decrease house values - resulting in lower returns for them - so instead they drip feed mortgagee sales onto the market... How do you legislate for that? Do you advocate forcing a business to conform to the market principles? Or should the rort just continue...

[mada]

Left thinking = Envy ... Right thinking = Enable (make things happen) There's nothing left but to get right on with life!

This post made me envious of your play on words....:nice one:

You're probably a leftie though. As if you are right handed then the side of your brain doing most of your higher level functions such as interpreting these words, integrating them, and then processing a response is primarily done in your left cerebral cortex which will be dominant.

Most people are right handed - thats why there are so many bloody lefties and we rule the world.

[Oscar]

It would not be in the banks interests to subject themselves to market principles - eg. putting all their mortgagee sales up at the same time - increasing supply would decrease house values - resulting in lower returns for them - so instead they drip feed mortgagee sales onto the market... How do you legislate for that? Do you advocate forcing a business to conform to the market principles? Or should the rort just continue...

You have a fairly warped idea of "market principles".
How is hanging onto houses subject to mortgagee sale an instrument of the free market?
Hanging on to these properties for longer than necessary will compound the loss for both the bank and the erstwhile owner.
And as you say, releasing them all at the same time depresses the market so the the debtor gets even less in the wash up.
How do you propose the poor bastids who owned those houses are going to pay default interest whilst waiting for the sale?

Notwithstanding this, why is it the banks interest for "everyone to be up to their eye balls in debt" - bad debtors cut banks profits.

You seem to forget there is more than one party in these deals.

[mada]

You have a fairly warped idea of "market principles".
How is hanging onto houses subject to mortgagee sale an instrument of the free market?
Hanging on to these properties for longer than necessary will compound the loss for both the bank and the erstwhile owner.
And as you say, releasing them all at the same time depresses the market so the the debtor gets even less in the wash up.
How do you propose the poor bastids who owned those houses are going to pay default interest whilst waiting for the sale?

You seem to forget there is more than one party in these deals.

Hanging onto the properties doesn't really compound the loss for the banks - when they end up getting a higher sale price to the original and potentially new business via loans. This has been happening for years, not just for houses either - for a lot of the farms too.

What I am saying is - it is not in the interests of most businesses to follow or try and adhere to the Market Principles. The Principles are contrary to most businesses goals - make money, usually as much as possible, and for the big multinationals such as banks - usually by any means. Most businesses would prefer not to work under such principles - as if they had to they would be struggling. And for that reason the Principles are just as airy fairy as socialism.

[mashman]

And who's fault is that? Same old shit, bunch of greedy cunts spending someone else's money. I just wish the govt would reimburse positive tax contributors when the shit hits the fan through overspending by tax beneficiaries.

I'm not taking more out than I should be. It's the arseholes that are that cause the problems, as I've been pointing out to you.

And for someone who's not envious you do a fucking good job of whining like a pork chop because others have shit you reckon they shouldn't. Fuck off to wherever you learned that shit was OK, 'cause all it does hereabouts is make you look a greedy cunt.

The govt does help those tax contributors, they get the waterways cleaned, they get a favourable ear for lobbying, they get crown guarantees, they have the ear of the govt etc... and if the shit hits the fan, well, you read Stephen's linky in the other thread, it ain't gonna turn out too well coz as is evidenced by the Ukraine and Iraq, pitchforks quite often turn into something entirely different and I'd rather avoid that. Either way, our reaction to such concern is, "reset" the system and let's lumber from one fuck up to another as the boom bust cycle continues on its way to financial collapse and drives all sorts of financially motivated emotive right/left/extreme/centrist rhetoric laced wedges into society. Tis bullshit. Greedy cunts/govts reimbursing tax contributions/tax beneficiaries only exist because of the fancy human activity bookkeeping system... they can't help being and needing to be, in fact they are all requirements for the economy.

Oh FFS meh. As above, the arseholes exist because of the human activity bookkeeping system, coz you're only calling them arseholes because they aren't doing what you expect them to do and that effect has a direct link to our standard of living. Silly human activity bookkeeping system.

Is that what I reckon? I reckon that's not what I reckon at all, but hey, you find your story's much bettererer than mine. Funnily enough my current array of shit was learned is 100% pure NZ based thinkin.

[oldrider]

This post made me envious of your play on words....:nice one:

You're probably a leftie though. As if you are right handed then the side of your brain doing most of your higher level functions such as interpreting these words, integrating them, and then processing a response is primarily done in your left cerebral cortex which will be dominant.

Most people are right handed - thats why there are so many bloody lefties and we rule the world.

Fail ... physically ambidextrous with a slight right bias centre brained ENTP ... difficulty with detail but long on vision! Suffering from effects of A.G.E.

[Brian d marge]

You have a fairly warped idea of "market principles".
How is hanging onto houses subject to mortgagee sale an instrument of the free market?
Hanging on to these properties for longer than necessary will compound the loss for both the bank and the erstwhile owner.
And as you say, releasing them all at the same time depresses the market so the the debtor gets even less in the wash up.
How do you propose the poor bastids who owned those houses are going to pay default interest whilst waiting for the sale?

Notwithstanding this, why is it the banks interest for "everyone to be up to their eye balls in debt" - bad debtors cut banks profits.

You seem to forget there is more than one party in these deals.

you really have no idea how things work


The more debt the better

you cant even understand inflation .....go back to delivering milk at least you had a chance of some excitement

Stephen

[mada]

Fail ... physically ambidextrous with a slight right bias centre brained ENTP ... difficulty with detail but long on vision! Suffering from effects of A.G.E.

Ahh so you're one of those buggers who sits in the centre politics wise. Very uncommon compared to the dominating lefty types

Your chances of coping well from a stroke or similar condition are much better than us lefties though

[Oscar]

you really have no idea how things work


The more debt the better

you cant even understand inflation .....go back to delivering milk at least you had a chance of some excitement

Stephen

That's pretty funny.
I have spent a good portion of my life working for banks and finance companies, so I actually have an idea of how real life works.
You may go on getting your ideas from comic books...

[mada]

That's pretty funny.
I have spent a good portion of my life working for banks and finance companies, so I actually have an idea of how real life works.
You may go on getting your ideas from comic books...

Ofcourse the banks don't act like predators....

Westpac staff in Christchurch say they are being forced to push loans and insurance policies on financially struggling customers in the wake of the devastating February earthquake.

Bank workers' union Finsec said staff have been told by management that "it is business as usual" in Christchurch and that they were required to meet their normal sales targets.

"Westpac tellers feel pressure to sell financial products where they don't always feel they are in the best interest of the customers," Mr Christeller said.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/rebu...estpac-tellers

Socialist lies eh..