Cunliffe's constituent Liu?

[bogan]

It's pretty hard to use google eh?

It's okay, even if I provide the data you and Ocean will complain that it does not examine the ratio of income spent per mm of grogen left in the shitter.





http://socialreport.msd.govt.nz/econ...rdability.html


Easy to spout off the same rhetoric with no evidence that "people just need to work longer hours and earn more" - cos money and work just falls off trees - will improve GDP.

People must be just working less and be lazier - that explains the general trend across all Western countries for lower rates of home ownership.

Now you're talking about renters? Cmon, earlier you said

All the facts and figures show compared to post 30s onwards, now more than ever our income:house price ratio is most distorted and with prices at their highest.

Now you can't find any facts and figure to back that up? One simple task you got, do try harder at it, instead of trying so hard to dodge the question.

[Brian d marge]

I will read
Looks interesting pdf

[mada]

Now you're talking about renters? Cmon, earlier you said



Now you can't find any facts and figure to back that up? One simple task you got, do try harder at it, instead of trying so hard to dodge the question.

The first line on the website I provided with the direct quotes clearly defines what it is talking about:

"Housing affordability
Definition
The proportion of households and the proportion of people within households spending more than 30 percent of their disposable income on housing."

Perhaps English is not your first language if you equate the above to equaling "renters".

[bogan]

The first line on the website I provided with the direct quotes clearly defines what it is talking about:




Perhaps English is not your first language if you equate the above to equaling "renters".

Not clear at all whether that include mortgage servicing. Like if mortgage payments are included, and are way above the 30% as your previous post explained, that must mean less than 30% of the population is paying off mortgages... Which may or may not be the case, but you must by now see why we want the data that directly answers the question, that data you said was everywhere, so, where is it? Cos that is counted out simply be it starts almost 60 years late

[mada]

Not clear at all whether that include mortgage servicing. Like if mortgage payments are included, and are way above the 30% as your previous post explained, that must mean less than 30% of the population is paying off mortgages... Which may or may not be the case, but you must by now see why we want the data that directly answers the question, that data you said was everywhere, so, where is it? Cos that is counted out simply be it starts almost 60 years late

If you cant see from all the data provided that housing affordability overall has gone down due to increased prices and can't grasp the logic that increased prices = increased mortgages then I doubt anything more specific would convince you.

Last shot - but I doubt you will make any sense of this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=10881119

[bogan]

If you cant see from all the data provided that housing affordability overall has gone down due to increased prices and can't grasp the logic that increased prices = increased mortgages then I doubt anything more specific would convince you.

Last shot - but I doubt you will make any sense of this:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=10881119

Yet before, the main cause of increased mortgages was that they were easier to obtain, with lower deposits and lower repayments simply dragging them out, and increasing the total cost through servicing the interest.

Yes I get there has been a short-term trend in the last 10-20 years of increasing house prices yet income not increasing as much; actually, going by the ratio graph it can barely be called a short term trend, there was simply a jump in 2004; what happened then?
In any case you said since the 30s, a long term trend; you've not shown me that. So I guess you need to decide to follow up on that, or back out of it and we can dismiss that, then explain some of the legitimate factors why housing prices have increased so much in that 2004 year...

[mada]

Yet before, the main cause of increased mortgages was that they were easier to obtain, with lower deposits and lower repayments simply dragging them out, and increasing the total cost through servicing the interest.

Yes I get there has been a short-term trend in the last 10-20 years of increasing house prices yet income not increasing as much; actually, going by the ratio graph it can barely be called a short term trend, there was simply a jump in 2004; what happened then?
In any case you said since the 30s, a long term trend; you've not shown me that. So I guess you need to decide to follow up on that, or back out of it and we can dismiss that, then explain some of the legitimate factors why housing prices have increased so much in that 2004 year...

"Rates of home ownership among households in the four main cities rose during the 1920s, dropped during the depression years in the 1930s and peaked at 76% of households in 1986. Family home ownership was supported by access to low-interest state mortgages. From 1958 to 1991 parents could use family-benefit payments for their children to create a deposit for a home, add rooms when additional children were born or reduce existing mortgages. Home-ownership rates declined in the 1990s and early 21st century as housing prices rose and those who were not already owners found it difficult to accumulate the necessary deposit and meet mortgage payments.

Source: New Zealand census, 1916–2006"

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/graph/30...home-ownership

As I showed you before from 2013 census:

" In 2013, 49.8 per cent of people aged 15 years and over owned or partly owned the home they lived in, compared with 53.2 per cent in 2006, according to census results released by Statistics New Zealand today. "

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=11221811


Home ownership from that graph in 1936 (when the First Labour government got in and started building state houses) was approx 50% and continued to grow until the 1980s. As per the 2013 census we are now below that level of home ownership.

[bogan]

http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/graph/30...home-ownership

As I showed you before from 2013 census:



http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=11221811


Home ownership from that graph in 1936 was approx 50% and continued to grow until the 1980s.

Home ownership doesn't necessarily correlate to affordability though; this is why we keep asking for income/price figures. I understand that home ownership rates rose from 30 to 86, and have fallen since (so there certainly isnt a long term trend of lowering ownership rates), but what is the reason? What happened in 86 to turn the trend?

[mada]

Home ownership doesn't necessarily correlate to affordability though; this is why we keep asking for income/price figures. I understand that home ownership rates rose from 30 to 86, and have fallen since (so there certainly isnt a long term trend of lowering ownership rates), but what is the reason? What happened in 86 to turn the trend?

Here is the trend shown from the 60s up until 2005 (you'll note I've already shown how the trend has gotten worse from 2000s to now). Given what occurred in the 30s with the state pumping out houses on the cheap and the beginning of the welfare state and further state housing under national and benefits in 50s it would be logical to assume that from mid 30s to the 60s the trend was fairly consistent.



http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/dpmc/publica...r-report/hpr-8

[bogan]

Here is the trend shown from the 60s up until 2005 (you'll note I've already shown how the trend has gotten worse from 2000s to now). Given what occurred in the 30s with the state pumping out houses on the cheap and the beginning of the welfare state and further state housing under national and benefits in 50s it would be logical to assume that from mid 30s to the 60s the trend was fairly consistent.



http://www.dpmc.govt.nz/dpmc/publica...r-report/hpr-8

I'd call that a very slight increase, as could be accounted for by land prices/scarcity up until mid 80s and then the mid 2000s when it fell again. Seems there is more significance in those dates than any such trend. And no, you can't just extrapolate shit and claim the facts back it up, 60s to 30s could easily go the other way.

[mada]

I'd call that a very slight increase, as could be accounted for by land prices/scarcity up until mid 80s and then the mid 2000s when it fell again. Seems there is more significance in those dates than any such trend. And no, you can't just extrapolate shit and claim the facts back it up, 60s to 30s could easily go the other way.

Yeh a only a slight increase from 2 x the median household income to 6-7 times the median household income....

[bogan]

Yeh a only a slight increase from 2 x the median income to 6-7 times the median income....

Slight from 60 through the 80s then a big one, then a big drop mid 00s,hence my focus on the dates rather than an overall trend. What is it you think caused those three things?

[Brian d marge]

Not in a position to reply fully but do remember @fiat money started in 1970 and the arabs put the pices up resulting in a lot of cheap money

from me web site
snip;
1929 following word that Pres. Dwight D. Eisenhower had suffered a heart attack.
Here we go , again . We need help.......
1957 Oct 1, The motto "In God We Trust" began appearing on US paper currency.
1957 Alex Guinness, William Holden and Jack Hawkins starred in the film "Bridge on the River
Kwai." Carl Foreman was the screenwriter. It premiered at the RKO Palace Theater in New York City
on Dec 18 and later won multiple Oscars. It was rated #13 by the Amer. Film Inst. in 1998. Holden was
the 1st Hollywood actor to earn a $ 1 million for a film.
Hey feeling good ? Lets hit the town .......( this is where it starts .....)
1958 Oct 1, American Express launched its first credit card.
1962 Milton Friedman and his wife Rose published "Capitalism and Freedom," a good summary of
Friedman’s economic thinking.
This might hurt, but some light entertainment to keep the masses happy ......
1963 The film "Cleopatra" starred Elizabeth Taylor, Richard Burton and Roddy McDowall and ran for
243 minutes. Taylor was the 1st Hollywood actress to earn a $ 1 million for a film.
1964 Mar 24, Kennedy half-dollar was issued.
1967 May 18, Silver hit a record $1.60 an ounce in London.
1967 Jun 27, The first recognizably automated teller machine (ATM) was placed outside the Barclays
PLC branch in Enfield, a north London suburb.
1968 Mar 15, The U.S. mint halted the practice of buying and selling gold.
1970S Stagflation, a period of rising inflation, high oil prices and weak labor markets, marked

the global economy. key word is global

1971 Feb 15, Britain abandoned the unit of the penny on Decimal Day, February 15, 1971, replacing
the shilling with five new pence, so that one pound sterling became divided into 100 new pence.
1973 Oct 18, Congress authorized a bicentennial quarter, half-dollar and dollar coin.
1973 The market for traded uncertainty came into being with the publication of a paper by Myron

Scholes and Fischer Black (the Black-Scholes model).....

1974 Jan 31, Gold hit a record high of $195.5 an ounce.
1974 May 1, The US Federal Hourly Minimum Wage was set at $2.00 an hour.
1974 Oct 28, A US law banned discrimination of sex or marital status in credit application.
1977 The International Monetary Fund (IMF) drafted rules regarding currency exchange rates
following the collapse of the int’l. gold standard and the fixed-exchange-rate system (1971).
1978 Jul 28, Price of gold topped the $200 per oz level for 1st time. Spot gold closed at $201.30.
1978US net foreign assets in 1978 equaled 9% of GDP. By 2005 this dropped to net liabilities of 25%
GDP.
1979 Mar 13, European Monetary System (EMS) entered into force.
1979 Jul 1, The Susan B. Anthony dollar was issued. It was the 1st US coin to honor a woman. The 1st
coin was struck Feb 2 in San Francisco. The SF mint produced 100 million of the coins. Another 400
million were made in Philadelphia and Denver. It was not widely accepted and production stopped in
1981.
1979 Oct 6, Paul Volcker, new chairman of the Federal Reserve, raised interest rates sharply to clamp

down on inflation knowing that it would send interest rates soaring. Volcker held his position until
Aug, 1987
1979 Gold, fine art, and antiques rose in value under the inflationary economy. America’s core
inflation, which excludes oil and food, rose at a 7% rate.
1980 Jan 21, Gold peaked in NY at $875 a troy ounce. By mid-March gold prices fell to below $500
per ounce.

1980 Mar 31, President Carter deregulated the banking industry.

1980 The US Monetary Control Act deregulated interest rates. ohhhh this is gonna hurt !

1980 The Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. (FDIC), established in 1933, raised its limit to $100,000.
The previous limit, set in 1969, was $20,000.
1980 A group of banks led by J.P. Morgan made massive bailout loans of $1 billion to the Hunt
brothers who had allegedly tried to corner the silver market.
1981 Singapore implemented a managed float for its currency. It pegged its dollar to a basket of
currencies that mirrored its trading patterns. The Monetary Authority of Singapore does not
announce the contents of the basket. It just tweaks the mix as needed.
1985 Sep, In NYC ministers of the Group of Seven (G-7) major industrial countries unified and
adopted the Plaza Accord for currency intervention and struggled to control capital exchange-
rate movements. Led by the US Treasury's Sec. James Baker, it was the first effort to restore
some semblance of order to the monetary system since the collapse of the postwar Breton Woods
gold-anchored finance systems in the early 1970s. In the wake of the accord the dollar lost almost
30% of its value.
1987 Feb 22, The Finance Ministers and Central Bank Governors of six major industrial countries
(Canada, France, Germany, Japan, United Kingdom, United States, G6) met in Paris and agreed in the
Louvre Accord to bring down the value of the dollar.
1987 Oct 19, Black Monday, the stock market crashed as the Dow Jones Industrial Average,
amid frenzied selling, plunged 508 points, 22.6%,-- its biggest-ever one-day decline. The crash
was preceded by legislation to block tax deductions for debt incurred in corporate takeovers
which were fueling the market. It was also preceded by plunges in other international markets.
Hong Kong suffered a 46% decline in October.
1987 The US government slashed interest rates following the stock market crash.
1987 The US government gave banks permission to sell bonds.
1987 Andy Krieger sold short more kiwis than the entire money supply of New Zealand. yeeehaaaaaaa

[Brian d marge]

Sure it is. By any reasonable metric you use the vast majority of people on this planet have never had it so good.

It don't sell well. It ain't fashionable. It's of no use whatsoever to the grievance industry. And the radical left hate it to pieces.

But it's true.

Enjoy:

http://www.heritage.org/index/pdf/20...7_chapter1.pdf

http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog...;s-digest.aspx

Having had the chance to read both , Some good points in the second link . Some I wouldnt agreee with such as food , yes we are consuming more calories but junk or health calories ...for example

the first , they use the world bank poverty line for example , but nowhere can I see this linked to the purchasing power of the individuals money ( I like the way they use an individuals income , distributed , makes sense)

Also they pointed out the rise in Asia ...but also noted that if africa doesnt pull it sock up the trend will reverse ....

and Im sorry , they mentioned the gini , but didnt quote any figures and the data I have shows a general world increase from 0.4 to 0.6 settling around 0.6 just before ww1

Italy and greece drop but others are up

Stephen

good read thank you

[MisterD]

Given what occurred in the 30s with the state pumping out houses on the cheap

Imagine if we'd had an RMA back then, imagine if we'd had the ridiculous costs applied by councils...

Look at all those lovely "heritage" (does this word just mean "old"?) Villas and Bungalows around the country, spec-built by private developers. Land availability and bureaucratic ticket-clipping means there's basically no business case that works for jobbing builders to do this anymore.