The Ukraine

[mashman]

Mike Whitney is on to it (as usual)

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/...-to-the-brink/

Funny how the UN aren't berating Poroshenko for murdering the citizens yet feel the need to paint Putin as the butcher. The US fucking around in places a they have absolutely no right to be fucking around in is not a part of their history in the slightest.

[angle]

Found the article I read, take from it what you want but buzzfeed hasn't seemed too loopy in the past.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/ho...t-russia-today

What did you find so interesting about this article? It is a collection of poor clichés (some of which even contradict each other), with no factual information at all, let alone an attempt at analysis.

[mark247]

What did you find so interesting about this article? It is a collection of poor clichés (some of which even contradict each other), with no factual information at all, let alone an attempt at analysis.

I think there is some truth in it, and it isn't the only article on the net critizing Russia Today. It isn't a well written article by any means, but if what former employees said in it are true I think that does show that RT isn't completely 'objective.' I have a very hard time finding it any more believable than Fox or whatever.

[mashman]

I think there is some truth in it, and it isn't the only article on the net critizing Russia Today. It isn't a well written article by any means, but if what former employees said in it are true I think that does show that RT isn't completely 'objective.' I have a very hard time finding it any more believable than Fox or whatever.

So the shelling, empty stores, bodies, destroyed buildings etc... are all faked? Sometimes pictures tell a thousand words. Some tell a million. The most recent attempt at objectivity went out of the window when the cease fire was terminated.

[mark247]

So the shelling, empty stores, bodies, destroyed buildings etc... are all faked? Sometimes pictures tell a thousand words. Some tell a million. The most recent attempt at objectivity went out of the window when the cease fire was terminated.

So do you actually support the separatists in Eastern Ukraine? Or are you just against the Ukrainian government?

No, of course there has been shelling and other horrible things (Not that the Russian government can ever claim the moral high ground regarding this, remember Grozny).

I never said RT (or any other agency) puts out entirely fake news. I said a lot of their articles or reports are not objective and are sometimes excessively provocative. It is esspecially important to remember this due to the fact that RT is run by the Russian government. I just don't think it's going to report entirely fairing on what is going on in Ukraine. Again, I'm not denying shelling or anything liek that, that said, Russia Today (and other Russia media, but not only) have reported using a lot archived photos of other conflicts saying they're Ukraine.

I'm sorry, RT just really rarks me up. I did my master's partly on Russian politics and it required a lot of research. I learned not to believe a thing some news sites report on, one being RT.

[mark247]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvX04kFmXKA

Gubarev looks like he knows they're defeated.

[mashman]

So do you actually support the separatists in Eastern Ukraine? Or are you just against the Ukrainian government?

I support the people. Not those with guns. Not those with an agenda that isn't cooperative. Those who should be allowed to go about their lives without some useless twats playing war games getting in the way of their day. The media show and print what they show and print. The politicians politic. I decide to believe what I decide believe. People suffer. Nothing is done.

[mark247]

I support the people. Not those with guns. Not those with an agenda that isn't cooperative. Those who should be allowed to go about their lives without some useless twats playing war games getting in the way of their day. The media show and print what they show and print. The politicians politic. People suffer. Nothing is done.

Nice to hear.

It's scary that the separatists have retreated to Donetsk. Why cant this battle be fought, by those with guns, out of the way of the innocent.

[angle]

I think there is some truth in it, and it isn't the only article on the net critizing Russia Today. It isn't a well written article by any means, but if what former employees said in it are true I think that does show that RT isn't completely 'objective.' I have a very hard time finding it any more believable than Fox or whatever.

I agree that RT is not completely objective (as pretty much all of us), however, as I said previously, in my opinion they are the most objective out of all world news agencies known to me, even though my point of view differs from theirs significantly on certain things. Criticism is good, but it needs to be backed up by something real not by "some former employee said". Currently they are the only news network that actually covers things like Syria or Ukraine, providing real video footage most of the time.

[angle]

Nice to hear.

It's scary that the separatists have retreated to Donetsk. Why cant this battle be fought, by those with guns, out of the way of the innocent.

That is a question that has been posed to the Ukrainian government for a few months now. The self defence forces in Eastern Ukraine appeared when the 'Maydan Defence' and the 'Right Sector' along with the National Guard started killing civilians in Eastern Ukraine.

[mark247]

I agree that RT is not completely objective (as pretty much all of us), however, as I said previously, in my opinion they are the most objective out of all world news agencies known to me, even though my point of view differs from theirs significantly on certain things. Criticism is good, but it needs to be backed up by something real not by "some former employee said". Currently they are the only news network that actually covers things like Syria or Ukraine, providing real video footage most of the time.

They do show a lot of raw footage I agree, most of it is the same stuff posted on Twitter. I think it's good people can see this. The reporting around this raw footage (describing it etc) is the dangerous stuff, they twist stories like no other.

That is a question that has been posed to the Ukrainian government for a few months now. The self defence forces in Eastern Ukraine appeared when the 'Maydan Defence' and the 'Right Sector' along with the National Guard started killing civilians in Eastern Ukraine.

In my opinion, when someone picks up a gun and starts shouting political rants, they aren't really civillians anymore. When did they just start killing civilians intentionally?

[angle]

They do show a lot of raw footage I agree, most of it is the same stuff posted on Twitter. I think it's good people can see this. The reporting around this raw footage (describing it etc) is the dangerous stuff, they twist stories like no other.

I would really appreciate it if you take one of their newest stories and show how they twist it. I see a different point of view being offered (for a change), not a twist to the story as such.

In my opinion, when someone picks up a gun and starts shouting political rants, they aren't really civillians anymore. When did they just start killing civilians intentionally?

I completely agree with you there, that's why when the so called "Euro Maydan" started welding weapons and killing police officers while shouting out ultra-nationalist and pseudo-political rants they should have been brought down by force immediately, before the situation escalated into what it is now. When did they start killing civilians? Odessa and Mariupol are good examples and there are plenty more which occurred in the East (I've posted a compilation video of such attacks previously) prior to the referendum in Crimea and which were the primary cause for this referendum.

[mark247]

I would really appreciate it if you take one of their newest stories and show how they twist it. I see a different point of view being offered (for a change), not a twist to the story as such.

I'll keep an eye out.

I completely agree with you there, that's why when the so called "Euro Maydan" started welding weapons and killing police officers while shouting out ultra-nationalist and pseudo-political rants they should have been brought down by force immediately, before the situation escalated into what it is now. When did they start killing civilians? Odessa and Mariupol are good examples and there are plenty more which occurred in the East (I've posted a compilation video of such attacks previously) prior to the referendum in Crimea and which were the primary cause for this referendum.

Although I think none of us have decent info on what happened in Odessa in Mariupol, I think Odessa went both ways. I've seen clear footage of 'Pro-Russia' protestors with pistols etc. The fire, I don't know. I have heard stories pointing at both sides.

I have nothing against why Euromaiden sprouted up. It started as a protest against Yanukovych's government, and fair enough, his 'regime' deserved to be kicked on its ass. Some groups, the Russian media loves talking about pravy sector, did some questionable stuff sure. From my experience, talking to friends in Ukraine, the average pro-euromaiden individual was by no means violent. They simply wanted a better Ukraine. From what I've seen Berkut and other pro-gov individuals came out with sniper rifles, CLEARLY shooting at people who were unarmed or had useless bats and slug guns. This may have gone both ways, but I think it's pretty clear Euromaiden largely was a peaceful protest which was turned bad by a minority.

[angle]

I think Odessa went both ways. I've seen clear footage of 'Pro-Russia' protestors with pistols etc. The fire, I don't know. I have heard stories pointing at both sides.

Firstly, why are you calling them "Pro-Russian"? They don't call themselves that, they are normal Ukrainian citizens who are denied their basic human rights by the current Ukrainian government. Secondly, where is this footage of them wielding pistols? Thirdly, here is the video footage of the Odessa incident, not stories that you've heard, real video footage, which shows what happened quite clearly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAEcceedzCU

I have nothing against why Euromaiden sprouted up. It started as a protest against Yanukovych's government, and fair enough, his 'regime' deserved to be kicked on its ass.

Euromaydan sprouted up as a riot organised and openly financed by the USA, Yanukovich's presidency was only used to bait people who can't think for themselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbjNJbjEy04 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fYcHLouXY

Some groups, the Russian media loves talking about pravy sector, did some questionable stuff sure. From my experience, talking to friends in Ukraine, the average pro-euromaiden individual was by no means violent. They simply wanted a better Ukraine. From what I've seen Berkut and other pro-gov individuals came out with sniper rifles, CLEARLY shooting at people who were unarmed or had useless bats and slug guns. This may have gone both ways, but I think it's pretty clear Euromaiden largely was a peaceful protest which was turned bad by a minority.

These are Euromaydan activists and they most certainly don't seem peaceful to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABjC_-32qg
Please present some proof which shows that it was what you call "pro-gov" individuals who were sniping both the police and the rioters. You have made quite a number of claims yet provided no proof at all. The video footage shows quite clearly that the rioters (aka Euromaydan activists) where shot from their own positions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eihw0kx-JVU , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlY51HuNSHg

However now I understand why you hate RT so much. Their reporting makes it so much harder for you to lie.

[mark247]

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to make anything up, the reason I don't post tons of links is usually because I can't remember sources which I saw months ago, esspecially difficult if it's some youtube video in a language im not fully fluent in. I'm not trying to lie about anything, I guess I do have a bias towards the "pro-Ukrainians" du eto having spent a lot of time there.

Firstly, why are you calling them "Pro-Russian"? They don't call themselves that, they are normal Ukrainian citizens who are denied their basic human rights by the current Ukrainian government. Secondly, where is this footage of them wielding pistols? Thirdly, here is the video footage of the Odessa incident, not stories that you've heard, real video footage, which shows what happened quite clearly: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAEcceedzCU

I've probably been guiltly of this also, but I don't think there is one single "they." Sure somes of them are pissed off locals who are not pro ukr or ru, there are reports some were bussed in from Transnistria, and then there are pro-russians.



"Одесса за референдум" and Russian flags in Odessa, around this time.

Euromaydan sprouted up as a riot organised and openly financed by the USA, Yanukovich's presidency was only used to bait people who can't think for themselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbjNJbjEy04 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2fYcHLouXY

I'm not denying Euromaiden was supported by the Americans, or some Oligarchs, or whoever. There are still many genuinely concerned Ukrainians who simply supported positive change. Rememer also a large amount of people who wanted Yanukovych out didn't even go to 'Euromaidan square.' Euromaiden can be shaped as anything you want it to be (and very well done by the media), an American plot to destroy Putin, or whatever, and some of it may be half true.

These are Euromaydan activists and they most certainly don't seem peaceful to me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABjC_-32qg
Please present some proof which shows that it was what you call "pro-gov" individuals who were sniping both the police and the rioters. You have made quite a number of claims yet provided no proof at all. The video footage shows quite clearly that the rioters (aka Euromaydan activists) where shot from their own positions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eihw0kx-JVU , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlY51HuNSHg

Again, I said that a minority of Euromaiden supporters were violent. I don't know, 18 Berkut/Police killed VS over 100 civilians. I personally don't think the majority of police (who were just doing their job) or the majority of protestors wanted anyone killed.

However now I understand why you hate RT so much. Their reporting makes it so much harder for you to lie.

Again, I'm not lying about anything man, I might be a bit passionate about the topic, but that's it. I think I'm going to call it quits on this thread. Enjoy guys.