MPs on the poverty line

[Banditbandit]

I'm reading your words, you're just shit at writing them it seems.

So arrest and conviction rates do reflect crime rates, yet you also say they are treated differently by police and courts? Does that just mean they are letting whitey off heaps? The bias could easily be social (in fact that is what was written in the conclusion). The thing that strikes me as obvious, is to treat all kiwis as equals, so any social bias can be equalised out too.

Oooo .. you are nearly there - what do you suggest should happen so that "any social bias can be equalised out too"?

[bogan]

Oooo .. you are nearly there - what do you suggest should happen so that "any social bias can be equalised out too"?

Start with one of the most visible ones, remove Maori only seats in parliament; fast track all treaty claims/settlements done by 2020. Same date by which any govt sanctioned benefits/handouts are equal based on race etc. No doubt you'd have some more to add from a different perspective; but since I'm nearly there, no doubt you would agree with those ones for a start?

[Banditbandit]

Start with one of the most visible ones, remove Maori only seats in parliament;

Not too sure about this one .. but fix all the others and I might agree

fast track all treaty claims/settlements done by 2020.

Love to mate ... we are all sick of the holdups ...

Same date by which any govt sanctioned benefits/handouts are equal based on race etc.

I Agree. NAME THEM !!!

No doubt you'd have some more to add from a different perspective; but since I'm nearly there, no doubt you would agree with those ones for a start?

Yeah - I do agree with a couple. Here's a couple more

Cultural classrooms that replicate equity across both cultures, using appropriate cultural pedagogies ... (not asking for more money - 15% of the education vote will do. )

Cultural-based health services that replicate for Māori culture the current Pākehā models. (Not asking for more money - 15% of the health vote will do)

[bogan]

Not too sure about this one .. but fix all the others and I might agree




Love to mate ... we are all sick of the holdups ...




I Agree. NAME THEM !!!




Yeah - I do agree with a couple. Here's a couple more

Cultural classrooms that replicate equity across both cultures, using appropriate cultural pedagogies ... (not asking for more money - 15% of the education vote will do. )

Cultural-based health services that replicate for Māori culture the current Pākehā models. (Not asking for more money - 15% of the health vote will do)

Why not too sure about that one? why does one racial subset of society deserve an earmarked position inf govt when all the others have to get there on merit alone?

Maori only scholarships is the one that come to mind.

Cultural equity? Classrooms a pretty culture neutral if you ask me; and what do you mean 15% of education/health vote? is this another thing we must earmark for one racial subset while not offering the same to others?

[Ocean1]

Cultural classrooms that replicate equity across both cultures, using appropriate cultural pedagogies ... (not asking for more money - 15% of the education vote will do. )

Cultural-based health services that replicate for Māori culture the current Pākehā models. (Not asking for more money - 15% of the health vote will do)

What percentage of the health budget is currently spent on Maori?

Allow me: You don't know. You can't know, because no such data is collected. It's not collected because the industry's cultural safety policies forbid it. Want a clue? Visit an Emergency Department. Any time, anywhere in NZ, and do a head count.

What you may know is that there are both Maori and Pacific specific Health professional training courses and health qualifications. They're funded at enormously higher levels than the almost identical original qualifications on which they were based. I'd like to say they produce health professionals better qualified to serve the culture's they're designed exclusively to serve, but as the course entry criteria, course content and pass criteria all represent inferior professional technical qualities I can't see how they can.

Now, rather than blame the "Pakeha system" for failing Maori why don't you ask yourself what actually causes the shortfall in Maori health metrics? Because arbitrarily insisting on equity of outcomes and demanding enough of a share of resources to make it so is utter nonsense.

[Banditbandit]

What percentage of the health budget is currently spent on Maori?

Allow me: You don't know. You can't know, because no such data is collected. It's not collected because the industry's cultural safety policies forbid it. Want a clue? Visit an Emergency Department. Any time, anywhere in NZ, and do a head count.

Yes - you are correct - there is no compilation of those figures. That has bugger all to do with my point. My point is the money is not spent in ways that helps us - it is concentrated in the European-derived culture's forms f health measures.

What you may know is that there are both Maori and Pacific specific Health professional training courses and health qualifications. They're funded at enormously higher levels than the almost identical original qualifications on which they were based.

You are so wrong. I am currently involved in developing just such a qualification, and no, it is funded at exactly the same levels. I am sure that you can search the TEC website to see the funding categories for yourself - there are NO separate funding categories for Maori and Pasifika health programmes as opposed to other programmes.

I'd like to say they produce health professionals better qualified to serve the culture's they're designed exclusively to serve, but as the course entry criteria, course content and pass criteria all represent inferior professional technical qualities I can't see how they can.

Show me just show me - because as far as I know that is simply not true - so if you think you can show me the entry criteria of such a programme, compared to the others, then show me .. I will need proof of that, because my proofs are already there ..

Entry criteria are controlled and approved by NZQA in the ITP/Wananga sector and by Q-apps in the University sector. For health programmes there are professional bodies (Nursing Council, etc) who also approve entry criteria. Substandard entry criteria will not get approved and will not get Government funded.

Now, rather than blame the "Pakeha system" for failing Maori why don't you ask yourself what actually causes the shortfall in Maori health metrics? Because arbitrarily insisting on equity of outcomes and demanding enough of a share of resources to make it so is utter nonsense.

You miss my point - yes, we do have poor health outcomes - there is no disputing that - and those factors are part of our issues.

My point is that some of those outcomes are the result of people not wanting to go to mainstream doctors, hospitals and heath centres. First of all, it is not hard to demonstrate that they fail us. The stats I put up for the increased rate of misdiagnosis of prostate cancer in Māori men who DO go to the doctor is 25% higher than for the rest of the population ... how can you suggest that these doctors treat Māori as other people when we have such figures?

I'm suggesting that people do not go to these centres because they do not feel comfortable there because of the way they are treated. These are cultural considerations. Mainstream doctors treat the symptoms, the disease, the illness - they do not treat the whole person. The last time I saw a specialist I was treated like a piece of shit. He had no interest in me, he had no interest in talking to me - he did his test and said "you have (doesn't matter). NEXT ..." (And he was wrong).

Just as I am sure that you would not feel comfortable going to a Māori health provider, we do not always feel comfortable going to a health provider grounded in our European-derived cultures.

And I'm not arguing race. I have never used the word RACE and I use the word Ethnicity reluctantly when I have to. This is an argument about CULTURE ... and European-derived cultures do not cater well for our needs.

[Banditbandit]

Why not too sure about that one? why does one racial subset of society deserve an earmarked position inf govt when all the others have to get there on merit alone?

First of all, I never talk about race - the argument is about culture and about political power in this country - the white settlers simply took over, after counter-signing the Declaration of Independence and agreeing to Māori Sovereignty and despite orders from home - they simply took over. Even for the day it was not an ethical action - there were plenty of voices opposing colonization on ethical grounds.

My reluctance to agree is that we have a complete imbalance of power in this country - when that disappears I will agree they should be abolished.

And because I can see the counter arguments and it does seem undemocratic. However, democracy was imposed on us, and it was never a Maori political thing.

Maori only scholarships is the one that come to mind.

Name them. Name taxpayer-funded Maori only scholarships. I won't accept rumour, myth and speculation - NAME THEM. I'm sick of this bullshit - NAME THEM !!!

Cultural equity? Classrooms a pretty culture neutral if you ask me;

Seriously??? There is no such thing as cultural neutrality. The only thing that is culturally neutral is that we all breath, we all eat, we all shit and we all have sex. HOW we do those things is based in a culture. Cultural neutrality is a myth ...

How we learn in a classroom (pedagogy) is totally based within a culture, within a cultural approach to knowledge, what that is and how it is transmitted.

Do you really think that a room full of kids sitting at rows of desk with the teacher standing up the front is culturally neutral?? It is not how a Maori cultural learning situation would even look, let alone the human reactions taking place in such an environment.

and what do you mean 15% of education/health vote? is this another thing we must earmark for one racial subset while not offering the same to others?

No - the population of Godzone is about 15% Maori - so why not take that portion of the health and education budget and put it into Maori schools and health centres? It seems a fair division of the health vote - its probably what gets consumed by Maori anyway - but in ways that are not effective for our people.

And of course non-Maori are welcome to use such schools and centres as they wish. We are not culturally exclusive.

[bogan]

First of all, I never talk about race - the argument is about culture and about political power in this country - the white settlers simply took over, after counter-signing the Declaration of Independence and agreeing to Māori Sovereignty and despite orders from home - they simply took over. Even for the day it was not an ethical action - there were plenty of voices opposing colonization on ethical grounds.

My reluctance to agree is that we have a complete imbalance of power in this country - when that disappears I will agree they should be abolished.

And because I can see the counter arguments and it does seem undemocratic. However, democracy was imposed on us, and it was never a Maori political thing.



Name them. Name taxpayer-funded Maori only scholarships. I won't accept rumour, myth and speculation - NAME THEM. I'm sick of this bullshit - NAME THEM !!!



Seriously??? There is no such thing as cultural neutrality. The only thing that is culturally neutral is that we all breath, we all eat, we all shit and we all have sex. HOW we do those things is based in a culture. Cultural neutrality is a myth ...

How we learn in a classroom (pedagogy) is totally based within a culture, within a cultural approach to knowledge, what that is and how it is transmitted.

Do you really think that a room full of kids sitting at rows of desk with the teacher standing up the front is culturally neutral?? It is not how a Maori cultural learning situation would even look, let alone the human reactions taking place in such an environment.



No - the population of Godzone is about 15% Maori - so why not take that portion of the health and education budget and put it into Maori schools and health centres? It seems a fair division of the health vote - its probably what gets consumed by Maori anyway - but in ways that are not effective for our people.

And of course non-Maori are welcome to use such schools and centres as they wish. We are not culturally exclusive.

Bullshit you don't talk about race, that is exactly how you get the 15% figure.
More wah wah wah whitey took our things so we deserve special treatment, that is the real source of racial divide in this country. It's utter bullshit, kiwis chose to be what we are today; just because a minority doesn't agree with that doesn't mean they should get special treatment.

Cbf finding govt funded scholarships, plenty of private funded ones though http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/admis...&submit=submit

What I mean is the classroom doesn't focus on any one culture, in fact the main culture we had forced on us is Maori, with hakas and singing and arts etc. So what if Maori culture would do the whole thing differently, so might the NZ asian culture, etc etc; as kiwis we have decided how the classrooms should be.

More ideas for separatism? Big backwards step if you ask me. Have you got any evidence Maori benefit from segregation of education and healthcare?

[Banditbandit]

Treated al the same?? Look at this one - blatant racism ...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times...shoplift-shame

[Banditbandit]

Bullshit you don't talk about race, that is exactly how you get the 15% figure.

No - you put the "race" definition on that - I mean it as a cultural difference.

More wah wah wah whitey took our things so we deserve special treatment, that is the real source of racial divide in this country.

Or if I put my spin on it - Whitey won, we get the right to choose - shit the fuck up, you're a beaten people.

It's utter bullshit, kiwis chose to be what we are today; just because a minority doesn't agree with that doesn't mean they should get special treatment.

How can you say Kiwis chose, and then, in the same sentence, the minority did not agree? Can't you see the contradictions in your own thinking?

Cbf finding govt funded scholarships, plenty of private funded ones though http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/admis...&submit=submit

Those are private scholarships .. so what's you're problem? There are plenty of private scholarships in Godzone that are not open to everyone. WHat is your problem???

What I mean is the classroom doesn't focus on any one culture,

It doesn't have to focus on one culture - it is totally based in one culture.

in fact the main culture we had forced on us is Maori, with hakas and singing and arts etc.

Forced on you? Possibly - the main culture forced on us is the European-derived culture ...

So what if Maori culture would do the whole thing differently, so might the NZ asian culture, etc etc; as kiwis we have decided how the classrooms should be.

Yes - you kiwis have decided - and us Maori get shut out???

More ideas for separatism? Big backwards step if you ask me. Have you got any evidence Maori benefit from segregation of education and healthcare?

Absolutely - it might take me more than a couple of minutes to find it - but I will get it. Possibly today - more likely tomorrow.

[bogan]

No - you put the "race" definition on that - I mean it as a cultural difference.



Or if I put my spin on it - Whitey won, we get the right to choose - shit the fuck up, you're a beaten people.




How can you say Kiwis chose, and then, in the same sentence, the minority did not agree? Can't you see the contradictions in your own thinking?



Those are private scholarships .. so what's you're problem? There are plenty of private scholarships in Godzone that are not open to everyone. WHat is your problem???



It doesn't have to focus on one culture - it is totally based in one culture.



Forced on you? Possibly - the main culture forced on us is the European-derived culture ...



Yes - you kiwis have decided - and us Maori get shut out???




Absolutely - it might take me more than a couple of minutes to find it - but I will get it. Possibly today - more likely tomorrow.

And how was the 15% worked out, those who are of Maori descent, or those who are of Maori culture?

Exactly, your spin is always them vs us. We are all kiwis, grow up and accept that.

No, we are a democracy, the kiwi's choice is simply the majority, race/culture should not give one subset the right to rule over the other.

Find me even a tenth as many that are only open to pakehas...

I think I see the problem, your idea of culture is Maori, or not-maori; if it is based in any one culture, that culture is kiwi, which includes aspects of Maori anyway so I don't see what your problem is.

What aspects, from what culture? and remember not-Maori is not a culture in itself.

For the nth time, kiwi's include Maori; how is that so difficult to understand? Are you that racist that the concept is abhorrent to you or something?

[Banditbandit]

And how was the 15% worked out, those who are of Maori descent, or those who are of Maori culture?

15% of the population identify as "Maori" - you would have to ask each one of them what they mean by that choice ..

No, we are a democracy, the kiwi's choice is simply the majority, race/culture should not give one subset the right to rule over the other.

We do not ant to "rule" over anyone - we want a fair share in our own country.

Find me even a tenth as many that are only open to pakehas...

A tenth of what? Scholarships? I have no idea how many private scholarships there are in Godzone that are not open to everyone. There are heaps of family trusts that are only open to members of that family ... what is your problem? Are you suggsting that iwi and hapu trusts should be open to everyone? They are just our version of family trusts.

I think I see the problem, your idea of culture is Maori, or not-maori; if it is based in any one culture, that culture is kiwi, which includes aspects of Maori anyway so I don't see what your problem is.

What aspects, from what culture? and remember not-Maori is not a culture in itself.

I would not be that stupid - "Culture" is a homogenizing term and not all members of an overall culture will display all the features of that overall culture ...

For the nth time, kiwi's include Maori; how is that so difficult to understand? Are you that racist that the concept is abhorrent to you or something?

We do not see it that way at all. "Kiwi" is the name from the European-derived cultures. Why would we name ourselves after a wingless bird with hairy feathers that digs in the ground for grubs? You are, once again, imposing your ideas on Māori.

No, the concept is not abhorrent to us. What is abhorrent to us is that we are not treated with equity in our own country. Way back, we accepted the Europeans into our country and into our lives. They shat on us, and continue to shit on us.

Just look at the racist attitudes of Countdown workers, in the story I posted above. How often are you going to here, "There's a Kiwi in the store - better check to make sure they don't steal anything"?

And throwing the "racist" label is just another way of the dominant culture keeping us in a subordinate position and ignoring the issues. Typical arrogant attitude ..

[Banditbandit]

Cbf finding govt funded scholarships,

You demand I back up my claims .. but you CBF doing it yourself? Or do you know you won't find any?

So - back up your claims or stop perpetrating the bullshit myth that these scholarships exist.

[Banditbandit]

A system that provides more for Maori than any other ethnic group in the country.

Now, did you want to talk about the provision of those ethnically restricted services, or did you want to talk about the resulting outcomes?

Yeah .. let's do that ... show me .. show me how Maori are provided for more than any other ethnic group ... show me those ethnically restricted services ...

And then, yes, let's talk about the resulting outcomes ...

So - first - show me those ethnically restricted services ..

[bogan]

15% of the population identify as "Maori" - you would have to ask each one of them what they mean by that choice ..





We do not ant to "rule" over anyone - we want a fair share in our own country.



A tenth of what? Scholarships? I have no idea how many private scholarships there are in Godzone that are not open to everyone. There are heaps of family trusts that are only open to members of that family ... what is your problem? Are you suggsting that iwi and hapu trusts should be open to everyone? They are just our version of family trusts.



I would not be that stupid - "Culture" is a homogenizing term and not all members of an overall culture will display all the features of that overall culture ...



We do not see it that way at all. "Kiwi" is the name from the European-derived cultures. Why would we name ourselves after a wingless bird with hairy feathers that digs in the ground for grubs? You are, once again, imposing your ideas on Māori.

No, the concept is not abhorrent to us. What is abhorrent to us is that we are not treated with equity in our own country. Way back, we accepted the Europeans into our country and into our lives. They shat on us, and continue to shit on us.

Just look at the racist attitudes of Countdown workers, in the story I posted above. How often are you going to here, "There's a Kiwi in the store - better check to make sure they don't steal anything"?

And throwing the "racist" label is just another way of the dominant culture keeping us in a subordinate position and ignoring the issues. Typical arrogant attitude ..

Depends entirely on the context, was the question What race are you? or What culture do you identify with? where is that figure from origninally?

Fair share? fine then, do away with Maori only seats and get you fair share through your fair share of the votes. Stop asking for all these veto rights and preferential treatment, and abide by what your fair share contributes or fails to contribute to the democracy.

Find some that are for whites only then.

Exactly, demanding preferential treatment for one subset based on culture reasons alone just doesn't fit with the overall culture of kiwis.

Yawn, stil not good with words today I see. Kiwi is defined as: of or from new zealand. kiwi includes all new zealanders, even the rasicst cunts; end of fucking story. If you want to try hipster philosophical but my word doesn't mean what commonly accepted definition is then you can fuck right off; discussion require commonly accepted terms, deal with it.
You are treated with equity, your ideas are worth as much as anyone elses, what you want us to do is treat 15% of the nation's ideas as superior to any other 15%. That is not the way to end racism. Nor is crying about what my ancestors (who are also ancestors of 90% of those 15% too btw) did to your ancestors.

Just look at the shit you have to post, omg there is a racist working at countdown, sky is falling. I've been accused of shoplifting when I hadn't been, that shit didn't make it to the papers despite being age/clothing profiled.

What a crock of shit, throwing the racist label is done because you are demonstrably racist.

You demand I back up my claims .. but you CBF doing it yourself? Or do you know you won't find any?

So - back up your claims or stop perpetrating the bullshit myth that these scholarships exist.

Perhaps I will get right on that once you show how beneficial culture oriented learning is...