Nicky Hager

[Ocean1]

It's the same as the "increase the minimum wage and there'll be more unemployment" bullshit argument, that has been proven to be bullshit, time and time again,but, every time it's proposed, out come the cliches!.

I must have missed that blog.

Now, the only way you can claim there's no limit to minimum wage is to contend that there is no link between the value an employee generates and the cost to employ him.

Typical left wing cliché?

Otherwise there must be a value commensurate with any employee's work, and therefore a value at which ~n employees aren't employable.

Which, I can assure you is how employers in the real world see such things. In detail. Every fucking day. Usually well after the crew's gone home, when the timesheets on the desk look to add up to rather a lot more than can possibly be invoiced. Again.

[Ocean1]

Don't tell people what they can spend their money on... but they should take a productive job and forget anything that they would choose to do with their life. In fact, just in case they do try to follow their own heart, make it prohibitively expensive for anyone to do it.

I'm not telling anyone what to spend their money on. Quite the reverse, I'm saying that if you borrowed money to pay for courses that don't provide the means to pay for the loan then it's nobody else's fault but your own.

A lesson probably worth the cost all by itself in the long run.

[mashman]

I'm not telling anyone what to spend their money on. Quite the reverse, I'm saying that if you borrowed money to pay for courses that don't provide the means to pay for the loan then it's nobody else's fault but your own.

A lesson probably worth the cost all by itself in the long run.

You could read it again with satire specs on if ya like.

What? Once bitten twice shy?

[Banditbandit]

Civil Engineer? Certainly, sir, have a wedge of dosh and be here the first Monday next term. Underwater basket weaving? Sir should join that queue over there and be aware that the nice man at the other end will require two metric wedges of dosh at upon your arrival.

Fuck, this growing the economy lark is easy, what the fuck's all the fuss about?

Errr .. the problem with that is, and I agree we need more civil engineers, is that potential students are not interested in that. Brownlie tried to force Auckland Uni to train more engineers - but they could not get the students enrolled that Brownlie wanted .. the potential students made other choices ..

At present all TEOs submit an Investment Plan to TEC (the organisation that actually hands out the money to pay for the courses) .. and TEC either approves or otherwise that plan. It is not up to the institutes to decide what courses to offer - it is primarily central government. What TEC look for is community demand for the courses - and the community is the employers ... And too many bullshit courses will not get approved and funded by TEC. So currently central government does control the funding and puts it largely where the employers want it to go, not the TEOs.

A TEO that does not meet the investment plan has to pay back money received

http://www.tec.govt.nz/Resource-Cent...vestment-Plan/

Don't tell people what they can spend their money on... but they should take a productive job and forget anything that they would choose to do with their life. In fact, just in case they do try to follow their own heart, make it prohibitively expensive for anyone to do it.

Yes ... education has a much wider role than job training.

I'm not telling anyone what to spend their money on. Quite the reverse, I'm saying that if you borrowed money to pay for courses that don't provide the means to pay for the loan then it's nobody else's fault but your own.

A lesson probably worth the cost all by itself in the long run.

Yes - that too ... but education has a much wider role than just job training ... Look at our politicians .. plenty of education .. but not a lot of job training to prepare them for Parliament ..

[angle]

She thought that over for a few seconds, then she asked, "Why doesn't the homeless guy come over and do the work, and you can just pay him the $50?"
I said, "Welcome to the National Party."

The irony is that the real National policy is for this little girl to say that she will do the work, then go to the homeless guy telling him that he is so lucky that there is such a great opportunity for him to earn $5 by doing all this work. So he does it, the little girl pays the homeless guy his $5 and keeps $45 for doing sweet 'f' all.

[mashman]

Yes ... education has a much wider role than job training.

Jobs are a money gain, education is a money drain. Shit, I'd love to have a crack at some form of structural engineering, but I simply can't afford to have no salary for 3-x years. I often wonder how many people would like a change in career, potentially something a damned sight more challenging than they thought they were capable of or would enjoy 10/15/20 years ago. Accompanying that wonder is what we're losing in terms of creativity/ingenuity/innovation etc... because we have a system that is too inflexible to get the best out of any person at any age without adding extra expense and pressure.

[bluninja]

Jobs are a money gain, education is a money drain. Shit, I'd love to have a crack at some form of structural engineering, but I simply can't afford to have no salary for 3-x years. I often wonder how many people would like a change in career, potentially something a damned sight more challenging than they thought they were capable of or would enjoy 10/15/20 years ago. Accompanying that wonder is what we're losing in terms of creativity/ingenuity/innovation etc... because we have a system that is too inflexible to get the best out of any person at any age without adding extra expense and pressure.

Many people do change career....get off your arse and do what needs to be done. If you want it bad enough you will make it happen, your career, and your life is your responsibility. There's self study, part time study, night classes....etc etc. Find someone who does the role you think you want and take some holiday to work alongside them for free (not that you seem to want money and you are getting your holiday money). Or you could wait for someone to pay you to change career and make it all so easy......hmmmm I really fancy a spot of underwater basket weaving...where do I go for the free course and the benefits to cover my income whilst I change to a more creative career?

I wonder if Nicky Hager is a frustrated wannabe underwater basket weaver and that's really the reason behind his book....clearly a cry for help in career transistioning

[oldrider]

The irony is that the real National policy is for this little girl to say that she will do the work, then go to the homeless guy telling him that he is so lucky that there is such a great opportunity for him to earn $5 by doing all this work. So he does it, the little girl pays the homeless guy his $5 and keeps $45 for doing sweet 'f' all.

Fair enough it's called free enterprise! ... Under a socialist government he would say gimme $500 or fuck off cause I will lose my benefit for doing 'f' all.

[mashman]

Many people do change career....get off your arse and do what needs to be done. If you want it bad enough you will make it happen, your career, and your life is your responsibility. There's self study, part time study, night classes....etc etc. Find someone who does the role you think you want and take some holiday to work alongside them for free (not that you seem to want money and you are getting your holiday money). Or you could wait for someone to pay you to change career and make it all so easy......hmmmm I really fancy a spot of underwater basket weaving...where do I go for the free course and the benefits to cover my income whilst I change to a more creative career?

I wonder if Nicky Hager is a frustrated wannabe underwater basket weaver and that's really the reason behind his book....clearly a cry for help in career transistioning

If it was just me it'd be a no brainer, but with dependents it ain't so easy as I'd rather, because it is by far moire important, spend the time ensuring that my kids grow up well and supported... along with spending time with my wife, friends etc... I was merely pointing out that a change of career can bring on many unrequired pressures that can rip family's apart or change standard of life or indeed send one down the gurgler if the "gamble" doesn't pay off or destroy any financial security for the future of the family blah blah blah. It's harder than it needs to be imho. If you want to do underwater basket weaving, vote NOW .

lol... nah, I reckon he's right where he needs to be and should be forced to stay there instead of doing anything that he may choose to do.

[bluninja]

If it was just me it'd be a no brainer, but with dependents it ain't so easy as I'd rather, because it is by far moire important, spend the time ensuring that my kids grow up well and supported... along with spending time with my wife, friends etc... I was merely pointing out that a change of career can bring on many unrequired pressures that can rip family's apart or change standard of life or indeed send one down the gurgler if the "gamble" doesn't pay off or destroy any financial security for the future of the family blah blah blah. It's harder than it needs to be imho. If you want to do underwater basket weaving, vote NOW .

lol... nah, I reckon he's right where he needs to be and should be forced to stay there instead of doing anything that he may choose to do.

Interesting. What are you teaching your kids then? Be safe even if you aren't fully happy? that financial security and coming home at night and weekends is more important than pursuing your dreams? (whatever they are)? That you enjoy the status quo, and talk about changing it to a better future? Be the change! It starts now! but not with NOW

[mashman]

Interesting. What are you teaching your kids then? Be safe even if you aren't fully happy? that financial security and coming home at night and weekends is more important than pursuing your dreams? (whatever they are)? That you enjoy the status quo, and talk about changing it to a better future? Be the change! It starts now! but not with NOW

. I'm hoping that they'll realise that my dreams are less important to me than they are and I fully intend to see that my kids grow to make their own minds up irrespective of what they're taught by anyone and irrespective of any examples they witness. If they turn out even close to that, it will still have next to nothing to do with me. However if I'm off making money or studying or doing something with my time other than keeping an eye on how they're doing, then they could end up growing up to me nothing more than one of the billions of idiotic voters that roam this planet, or even worse, national voters. Ya can't offer them anything if you aren't there.

I am the change already and it is because of NOW

[angle]

Fair enough it's called free enterprise! ... Under a socialist government he would say gimme $500 or fuck off cause I will lose my benefit for doing 'f' all.

It is indeed called "free" enterprise although only select few are allowed to take the role of that little girl, and it is stringently controlled. Give people the option of bypassing the 'little girl' and I doubt they will ask for much more, I'm not taking the completely useless and lazy arses into account. In most official socialist states it is illegal not to work, unless you're a cripple.

[Banditbandit]

You are referring to the loss of the RSA contract for the ANZAC day poppies.

Yeah - that's the one ..

[angle]

... because we have a system that is too inflexible to get the best out of any person at any age ...

Key words in my opinion! No pun intended.

If you want it bad enough you will make it happen, your career, and your life is your responsibility. There's self study, part time study, night classes....etc etc.

Life does not need to be this difficult. It is also beneficial for the entire society when the majority of its members do productive work that they enjoy.

[Banditbandit]

I must have missed that blog.

Now, the only way you can claim there's no limit to minimum wage is to contend that there is no link between the value an employee generates and the cost to employ him.

Typical left wing cliché?

Otherwise there must be a value commensurate with any employee's work, and therefore a value at which ~n employees aren't employable.

Which, I can assure you is how employers in the real world see such things. In detail. Every fucking day. Usually well after the crew's gone home, when the timesheets on the desk look to add up to rather a lot more than can possibly be invoiced. Again.

The value of a human being is NOT the value of the goods they produce ...

The value of an employee (a position in an economic system) is directly related to the value of their production (the Marxist point is that the capitalist do not add value and are therefore not entitled to profit -I know the counter argument too you do not need to state it). So the value of the employee is less than the market price of the goods produced - the rest covers the other costs of production and the profit to the capitalist employer ...

If the costs of production (worker pay, electricity, rent, materials, machinery etc) add up to more than the produced goods can be sold for, then yes, the business goes under ..

There is no left wing cliché - there are muppets on the left who have no idea ... but the real left know differently ... and we would radically change things IF it was worth it - but in GodZone at present it is not worth it ..

The basic issue for me is that there is a differentiated labour scale that values some forms of labour over other forms of labour - that's bullshit - labour is labour - "from each according to his abilities and to each according to his needs" (with apologies for the sexist language which is a) old and b) Not mine ... )