What say you - review of motorcycle licences

[swbarnett]

My view is your response suggests to me that you do not understand how ABS works? ABS does not do the braking for you. It never does the braking for you. All it does is it prevents the wheel from locking up and therefore prevents skidding.

I understand that fine.

What I was getting when I said that ABS is braking for you is that it does the job of stopping the wheel skidding. This is something that we were taught to do ourselves. I really think this is a generational issue. I'm starting sound like the old guy saying "in my day we didn't have ABS, we just knew how to control our own wheel skid".

[swbarnett]

If you are riding appropriately, within good riding practices 99% of the time ABS will not cut in.

i.e. a perfect example of the law of diminishing returns.

Each time a new technology like this comes out it addresses a "problem" that is less of an issue than anything that went before it. Often it was never cconsidered a problem by anyone other than the technologists. Eventually we'll have to spend mega bugs on a technology that will save us in the event of a flash flood in the Sahara.

[_Shrek_]

Exactly, ABS cuts in as the front wheel begins to slide, effectively preventing it sliding. Every test done on ABS in cars or with motorcycles shows improved stopping capability in both the dry and wet.

If you are riding appropriately, within good riding practices 99% of the time ABS will not cut in.

I now own a bike with ABS. On the one occasion I needed it (so far), it worked a treat.

what about adventure riders?.... I for one, want to be able to lock up the back wheel with out abs cutting in & that goes for integrated brakes as well, be alright on road bikes, but when you want to take the long way home you want to be able to switch all that shit off
& not have some shiny bum who thinks he/she knows better telling us what we need on our bikes because it makes them safer to ride

[Big Dog]

but when you want to take the long way home you want to be able to switch all that shit off
& not have some shiny bum who thinks he/she knows better telling us what we need on our bikes because it makes them safer to ride

That there is the entire argument.
How much of our riding is over coming the challenges that pop up in a day?
Would your average rider still ride if there was no challenge?

If I offered you an R1 for the day would you rather have one with no aids, or one with traction control, stability control, linked ABS, some gismo that prevents the bike from ever falling over with both pitch and yaw stabilisation, Weather protection, climate control, air bags, side intrusion bars, side intrusion detection, blind spot detection, comfy seats, and a boss stereo with auto adjust volume control.

I think 60% of the pleasure I got from the Hayabusa was taming that beast.
Shot if I wanted all the above if drive a car.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Big Dog]

And if life was that depressing I would move back to Auckland and walk to work.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[bluninja]

Perhaps there should be a 6A on the license for those that can only ride with ABS

[Gremlin]

That there is the entire argument.
How much of our riding is over coming the challenges that pop up in a day?
Would your average rider still ride if there was no challenge?

On the other hand, I rounded a corner in the South Island at 100kph in the rain to find myself metres from a road of shiny tar. First I lost rear traction, noted by a flashing orange light in the corner of my vision and the bike sounding rough as guts as traction control kicked in. Then I lost front traction but through gentle moves I stayed upright and with momentum slid across a reasonable distance of tarmac (guessing 20+m) with no traction, before finding some on the other side.

The aids helped reduce a complicated situation. I could concentrate on keeping the bike balanced while closing the throttle slowly as the power had already been removed...

On the other hand, I'm reasonably certain in another situation traction control woke up far too late, while I was already trying to deal with a sideways bike and cutting the power while I was at full opposite lock and turned a lowside or save into a high side... All at 30kph with traction control fully engaged

[nzspokes]

Yeah, good point.

Computers are my job. Theres an adage that I was taught long ago that applies mostly to application development - "Never let the user do something that the computer can do". Since then I've agonised long and hard as to exacly how far this should go. Take it to it's extreme and you end up doing nothing because computers are doing it all.

The point I was trying to make was that if you let a computer do your braking because it doesn't fuck up then why not let it corner for you for the same reason. I agree that this is non-sensical. However, it does go to show that you've made the decision to go at least as far as letting ABS do your braking (at least the hairiest parts). Up until now I've chosen to stop before ABS as I don't think it's necessary (I'm still open to being convinced otherwise when I inevitably get a bike with it).

ABS gives you options when shit goes bad.

[swbarnett]

ABS gives you options when shit goes bad.

Having not used ABS you're going to have to explain that one. What options do you have that you didn't have before?

[p.dath]

Having not used ABS you're going to have to explain that one. What options do you have that you didn't have before?

You don't have to have used ABS to have some appreciation of the potential benefits, no matter how hard you try and argue otherwise. I'm guessing many people with cars and motorcycles that do have ABS haven't used it. Then there is the next group who have ABS, have had ABS activate, and didn't know. The mind gets very pre-occupied with the situation when things go badly wrong.

The obvious benefit is gaining some traction back after you have completely cocked it up and locked the front up. It is never a technology you plan to use [hopefully]. It is a technology to help you when things didn't go to plan.

If you can't imagine any benefit then its easy. You don't spend your hard earned money on the technology. It is currently an individuals choice. Personally I wouldn't mind having ABS, but I wouldn't be prepared to pay much extra to have it. As like you, I'm not sure how much benefit I would gain - but I do see some benefit.

[Big Dog]

On the other hand, I rounded a corner in the South Island at 100kph in the rain to find myself metres from a road of shiny tar. First I lost rear traction, noted by a flashing orange light in the corner of my vision and the bike sounding rough as guts as traction control kicked in. Then I lost front traction but through gentle moves I stayed upright and with momentum slid across a reasonable distance of tarmac (guessing 20+m) with no traction, before finding some on the other side.

The aids helped reduce a complicated situation. I could concentrate on keeping the bike balanced while closing the throttle slowly as the power had already been removed...

On the other hand, I'm reasonably certain in another situation traction control woke up far too late, while I was already trying to deal with a sideways bike and cutting the power while I was at full opposite lock and turned a lowside or save into a high side... All at 30kph with traction control fully engaged

Yes, hat is the imagined benefit. Which takes me full circle to my original position, if your riding a big rig perhaps there is more value to this benefit.

Just not sure I get myself into that position often enough to justify the expense and the loss to the experience of riding.


Like I said though a big rig like the GS with all the kit is a bit different to a DR350.

Don't get me wrong I see value there.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[swbarnett]

The obvious benefit is gaining some traction back after you have completely cocked it up and locked the front up.

Something I was trained to do and have done in anger a couple of times. I didn't even have to think about it. My subconscious took over.

It is never a technology you plan to use [hopefully]. It is a technology to help you when things didn't go to plan.

I'm definitely getting the impression that it's a technology mainly for those that worry about things not going to plan.

If you can't imagine any benefit then its easy. You don't spend your hard earned money on the technology. It is currently an individuals choice.

Of course there's the rub. That situation looks likely to change and I don't appreciate someone else deciding what is good for me. Especially when they know nothing about me. I'm open to being convinced and choosing to use ABS, but I would object strongly if that choice is taken away completely.

And, come to think of it, if I had the money to buy a new bike (not second hand) right now I don't really have a choice as the bike I would likely want to buy doesn't come without it (not that that would stop me).

[nzspokes]

I'm definitely getting the impression that it's a technology mainly for those that worry about things not going to plan.

Wow thats backward. Again, you dont have Anti Virus on your computers then?

ABS gives you the ability to move the bike under hard braking or even turn a little. It does not do anything until it detects a slip.

Years ago I had a car pull out on me on a highway. I was in an old VS Commodore doing 100kph. Im somewhat of a trained driver. The ABS gave me the chance to brake hard and turn the car to clear the car that pulled out on me. I would have hit it in a car that did not have ABS even if I used threshold braking.

[caspernz]

Wow thats backward. Again, you dont have Anti Virus on your computers then?

ABS gives you the ability to move the bike under hard braking or even turn a little. It does not do anything until it detects a slip.

Years ago I had a car pull out on me on a highway. I was in an old VS Commodore doing 100kph. Im somewhat of a trained driver. The ABS gave me the chance to brake hard and turn the car to clear the car that pulled out on me. I would have hit it in a car that did not have ABS even if I used threshold braking.

Thank you, my point all along. ABS, when used in that once in a blue moon event, gives you options in the form of time and control...that no amount of training/practice/mind voodoo can replace.

In reality it takes a bit of practising to find the point of lockup on any bike. It also takes a lot more force to lock the front than most riders realise, so getting the ABS to activate in a practice scenario is quite an enlightening experience. The variables of surface condition, tyre temps etc make practice on day 1 irrelevant to a panic brake scenario on day 4711....

[nzspokes]

Thank you, my point all along. ABS, when used in that once in a blue moon event, gives you options in the form of time and control...that no amount of training/practice/mind voodoo can replace.

In reality it takes a bit of practising to find the point of lockup on any bike. It also takes a lot more force to lock the front than most riders realise, so getting the ABS to activate in a practice scenario is quite an enlightening experience. The variables of surface condition, tyre temps etc make practice on day 1 irrelevant to a panic brake scenario on day 4711....

Also dosent hurt to make your ABS fire from time to time. Its good for it. I make my car do it every month or so.