SCU on TV1 - bike vs car fatal

[Paul in NZ]

He is my brother in law, this has absolutely floored him, as a solo dad, he put everything into his boys and is now rudderless. It was everything he said at the time - poor visibility for the driver, and the boy was speeding. The road he knew well was dropped from a 1ookph to a 50kph, pretty hard to rein it back to half the speed you are used to...also mentioned by the father, he told him about the speed change. Also laying it down, not a bright move.

A family of riders - my wife as the eldest got a bike first, then all 8 kids and both parents rode motorcycles. This is the first one we've lost. You know my views on discussing motorcycle accidents, and his father took a tougher view than the investigators, proud of him for that.

Vicki and I are sorry for your loss mate...

Fault or not - its never good to see a young life ended like this...

[PrincessBandit]

I really felt for the dad - can't remotely imagine what it would be like getting that dreaded knock at the door.

The discussion on the show regarding the speed of the bike wasn't inflammatory; the only thing that got my hackles up a tad was the "if he'd been wearing a high viz..." God only knows that you could have a flourescent disco bike and matching hideous outfit and there would still be someone who 'wouldn't see you'.

It certainly made me think about how I ride on those semi-rural roads and the need to be constantly aware that the unexpected is um, well, always when you least expect it. Riders also need to be mindful of their ability to cope with those sorts of curveballs - they agreed that laying it down was not the right choice (I believe someone on the show said that he'd would have been better off going for the high side); but then you never know exactly what you're going to do until you have to do it. And whatever choice you make, it can still be the wrong one. It was a very sad watch.

[JimO]

The shit "science " that these people are using. The car had a wof and the bike didn't so it looks like they are trying to fit the facts around the bike rider being at fault, eg " if the bike was in a high gear it must have been doing over the speed limit"

my son was knocked off his old NZ250 a few years back by a 80 year old man who drove straight through a compulsory stop, he was in a line of traffic and several witnesses told the cop that attended that he wasnt speeding, at the accident scene the cop asked him several times if he was speeding and followed the ambulance to the hospital and continued on asking him even though he was told NO i wasnt speeding. He went over the bike at the scene looking for any reason to hand out a ticket, the car driver wasnt charged with anything but was advised to give up driving

[Erelyes]

The open road signs are far to close to the intersection IMHO.

Yeah, aye. Especially since there was an advisory 35 corner right after.

[FJRider]

Yeah, aye. Especially since there was an advisory 35 corner right after.

How about a STOP sign ... ??

[caseye]

No disrespect to our resident GC coppers, but in this day and age it seems that our Police Force is always looking for the easiest way out.
We all know of at least 3 or 4 people currently in jail who shouldn't be.
All of that aside this guys dad deserves a medal, he's accepted that his sons own actions most probably contributed to this tragic event and said so publicly.
Doesn't make it any easier to bear.
Blued brake disc, means Fuck all, who did it, when? Not conclusive.
Laid it down? OK, no braking marks, when did he lay it down? In conclusive.
Approaching an open road sign, yep we all increase our speed, car drivers included.In conclusive.
Wasn't wearing Hi Vis? OK, what difference would that have made if the SCU's conclusion that the flora and fauna(2 Foot high.MAX!) was stopping him from being seen as he approached the intersection. In Conclusive.
Rider going faster than newly posted speed sign, probably, OK, why is it, that IF this contributed to his being killed by a car driver pulling out in front of him, that the car driver hasn't been charged with careless use causing death? As they should have been, they were still totally in the wrong!
Bloody tragic that no one is trying to make all other intersections safer by simple shit, like mowing the grass, removing sight blocking obstacles ( whatever they are) putting road signs in far more driver /rider friendly places.
Why can't we all be asked for our opinions as riders what we'd like to see changed to make our roads safer?
Our No 1 request? to other road users, look properly! See us, not a smaller road user who will give way because we're going to come off second best if we don't!

Is this going to happen?
Sadly, Hardly!

[FJRider]

Rider going faster than newly posted speed sign, probably, OK, why is it, that IF this contributed to his being killed by a car driver pulling out in front of him, that the car driver hasn't been charged with careless use causing death? As they should have been, they were still totally in the wrong!

If it cannot be proved that the motorcyclist WAS in sight when the car driver pulled out from the intersection ... Careless use does not apply.

Then ... at worst ... just bad timing.


Each time we ALL climb on a motorcycle ... we ALL take the risk of such happening to us.

And the amount of increase/decrease of speed of speed matters little ... unless you prefer a shorter STOPPING distance ... when it is needed. YOU decide how much stopping distance you need ... and if you get it right ... you might live.

Get it wrong ...

[98tls]

No disrespect to our resident GC coppers, but in this day and age it seems that our Police Force is always looking for the easiest way out.
We all know of at least 3 or 4 people currently in jail who shouldn't be.
All of that aside this guys dad deserves a medal, he's accepted that his sons own actions most probably contributed to this tragic event and said so publicly.
Doesn't make it any easier to bear.
Blued brake disc, means Fuck all, who did it, when? Not conclusive.
Laid it down? OK, no braking marks, when did he lay it down? In conclusive.
Approaching an open road sign, yep we all increase our speed, car drivers included.In conclusive.
Wasn't wearing Hi Vis? OK, what difference would that have made if the SCU's conclusion that the flora and fauna(2 Foot high.MAX!) was stopping him from being seen as he approached the intersection. In Conclusive.
Rider going faster than newly posted speed sign, probably, OK, why is it, that IF this contributed to his being killed by a car driver pulling out in front of him, that the car driver hasn't been charged with careless use causing death? As they should have been, they were still totally in the wrong!
Bloody tragic that no one is trying to make all other intersections safer by simple shit, like mowing the grass, removing sight blocking obstacles ( whatever they are) putting road signs in far more driver /rider friendly places.
Why can't we all be asked for our opinions as riders what we'd like to see changed to make our roads safer?
Our No 1 request? to other road users, look properly! See us, not a smaller road user who will give way because we're going to come off second best if we don't!

Is this going to happen?
Sadly, Hardly!

No its not,many years ago my 20 year old cousin was riding back to the Airforce base out of Blenheim on her GN250 when on a straight piece of road she was collected by an old bloke who for reasons only known to himself turned directly into her path in an attempt to go buy some fruit result ending in her declared brain dead etc,sad but not enough to anger even her mother until his court appearance and the slap on the wrist the old bloke got.

[98tls]

How about a STOP sign ... ??

Jesus H....

[scumdog]

How about a STOP sign ... ??

We had a 50 to 70 change of speed 15 metres from the Stop sign by our place until recently so it's not unique..

[FJRider]

We had a 50 to 70 change of speed 15 metres from the Stop sign by our place until recently so it's not unique..

True ... and the corner speed advisory sign Erelyes mentioned ... was only advisory.

[98tls]

True ... and the corner speed advisory sign Erelyes mentioned ... was only advisory.

What about that bastard 15k sign over on the road back to Springs junction (possibly wrong)...15 yea right all packed up with Mrs on the back and gear doing the "fuck im good" thing with V-twin music to boot i think 15k my arse then good job there plenty of run off across the road.

[Erelyes]

OK, why is it, that IF this contributed to his being killed by a car driver pulling out in front of him, that the car driver hasn't been charged with careless use causing death? As they should have been, they were still totally in the wrong!

Did you even watch the video? It was presented in a pretty simple fashion.

Time it takes to pull out from intersection - about 3 seconds.

Time it takes to cover the distance between 'when bike can first be seen' and the car at 50kph - about the same.

Chances the bike was doing a fair whack more than 50kph - high.

Or in other words, how fast does the biker have to be going before you think the car driver's no longer at fault?

If you have an inherent view that 'a fucking cager' is always at fault you're set for a rude awakening some day.

If it cannot be proved that the motorcyclist WAS in sight when the car driver pulled out from the intersection ... Careless use does not apply.
(...)
YOU decide how much stopping distance you need

Wot 'e said.

[caseye]

Did you even watch the video? It was presented in a pretty simple fashion.

Time it takes to pull out from intersection - about 3 seconds.

Time it takes to cover the distance between 'when bike can first be seen' and the car at 50kph - about the same.

Chances the bike was doing a fair whack more than 50kph - high.

Or in other words, how fast does the biker have to be going before you think the car driver's no longer at fault?

If you have an inherent view that 'a fucking cager' is always at fault you're set for a rude awakening some day.



Wot 'e said.

Actually I did watch the video, I watched the whole thing.
SCU, in this country is a joke.
They are there to determine that someone is at fault, this way revenue can be extracted from the assessed in the wrong party and no one leaves unscathed.
If you look but don't see me (this happens all the time, never mind the distance argument) You! are still damned well in the wrong.
Once upon a time, where an accident that caused death was being attended, the attending officers job was to asses who did what, record contact details, at a later date those people were interviewed, get the fucking road reopened with as little fuss as possible. Don't forget, there were nosey car drivers to attend to as well, fire helped keep traffic going, Ambo's who have always done sterling work, did all they could too.
You got any idea what it costs the country to have a main arterial road closed for any length of time?
bet you don't!
Today, a clear cut, pulled out in front of oncoming vehicle, means road closed all day while SCU attends, takes pics, maps scene, determines who did what, then and this is non negotiable, someone is charged, why?:Revenue, that's why, it's not about deducing how it happened, taking the lesson and making sure it doesn't happen again.
The same scenario is happening everyday here in NZ.
Name me one piece of road that is similar or close to the same as another where lessons learn't at a fatal accident scene have been applied.
It doesn't happen, it is all about the big stick and collecting as much as possible from our citizens, not doing all that can be done to protect them.
My view on dumb assed bike jockeys is well known by many I ride with. As bike riders it behooves us to make sure wer'e OK, first and foremost.Being right and DEAD is no real option now is it.

[FJRider]

What about that bastard 15k sign over on the road back to Springs junction (possibly wrong)...15 yea right all packed up with Mrs on the back and gear doing the "fuck im good" thing with V-twin music to boot i think 15k my arse then good job there plenty of run off across the road.

Get an FJ1200. I can do it easy at 18 km's no issue ..