Just to piss Maha off......

[husaberg]

But the sanctions didn't actually achieve anything did they?

Saddam's long gone and Iraq is still a shit-hole. Argueably far worse than when Saddam was in power.

Really, but you oppose going in all guns blazing and then you also oppose UN sanctions.

You seem to forget that America effectively gave Saddam Hussein a 'green light' for his invasion of Kuwait.

According to WIKI
but is that what was really meant, I doubt it, as Kuwait was the one keeping oil prices down.
Everyone seems to avoid that wee nugget of information.
As it doesn't suit your own theories
Iraq wanted Kuwait to limit production to keep the price higher.

[Katman]

According to WIKI
but is that what was really meant, I doubt it, as Kuwait was the one keeping oil prices down.
Everyone seems to avoid that we nugget of information.
Iraq wanted Kuwait to limit production to keep the price higher

Kuwait were producing more oil than the prevailing quota allowed - in a deliberate attempt to hurt Iraq through lower oil prices.

[husaberg]

Kuwait were producing more oil than the prevailing quota allowed - in a deliberate attempt to hurt Iraq through lower oil prices.

They were producing oil as they so desired and was allowed for and entitled to legally. Opec were not worried, they did not support Iraq's position, So how does that suit your argument then.


Yet your augment falls over yet again.....
On 25 July 1990, only a few days before the Iraqi invasion, OPEC officials said that Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates had agreed to a proposal to limit daily oil output to 1.5 million barrels, thus potentially settling differences over oil policy between Kuwait and Iraq.

Iraq was not in a financial position to repay the US$14 billion it borrowed from Kuwait. Their problem.

[Swoop]

Have you ever stopped to wonder why America didn't finish the job off properly during the First Gulf War? Why they stopped just over the border instead of heading straight on to Baghdad?

Simply because the UN mandate didn't allow it. There were many who wanted to continue into Baghdad and finish it (and circumvent GW2 from being needed).

[pritch]

Not totally relevant but sort of interesting.

Tony Blair the former Brit PM had been invited to speak for twenty minutes at an international conference on hunger in Sweden. He advised them his fee would be 320,000 quid. That included 80,000 for expenses. 80,000 expenses? - WTF?

Blair's sense of perspective hasn't got any better since he did his stint as a war criminal.

[Katman]

They were producing oil as they so desired and was allowed for and entitled to legally. So how does that suit your argument then.

They were producing and selling more oil than the OPEC quotas allowed.

Not exactly sure how that qualifies as 'entitled to legally'.

[husaberg]

They were producing and selling more oil than the OPEC quotas allowed.

Not exactly sure how that qualifies as 'entitled to legally'.

If it was an issue OPEC would have supported Iraq's position. They did not.
Kuwait could do anything they wished in regards to production it was, their country, their oil.

Market weakness in the early 1980s caused OPEC to focus on oil production sharing as a strategy for controlling oil prices by regulating crude supply. A voluntary production-sharing plan was launched in 1982

The end of the Iran–Iraq War provided an opportunity to mend intra-OPEC relations, but the second Gulf War, which began when Iraq invaded Kuwait in 1990, brought new turmoil to oil markets and to OPEC itself. Before Iraq invaded Kuwait, world oil prices were depressed and virtually every OPEC member with excess production capacity was producing over its quota. Unfortunately for Kuwait, it was the only country small enough and close enough to suffer Iraq's wrath directly. After Kuwait was liberated in February 1991, U.N. sanctions against Iraq, imposed in retaliation for the invasion, ended legal oil exports from Iraq.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/OPEC.aspx

Kuwait even agreed to voluntarily limit production yet Iraq still invaded.

On 25 July 1990, only a few days before the Iraqi invasion, OPEC officials said that Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates had agreed to a proposal to limit daily oil output to 1.5 million barrels, thus potentially settling differences over oil policy between Kuwait and Iraq

Under a plan submitted by Saudi Arabia to a meeting of Arab gulf producers in Jidda, Saudi Arabia, in mid-July, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates appear to have agreed to stick by a quota of 1.5 million barrels a day each for the rest of this year.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/07/25/wo...to-kuwait.html
Your argument is thus invalid yet again.
Kuwait refused to write off the money Iraq owed them though.

[Katman]

Your argument is thus invalid yet again.

I've never claimed that Iraq's invasion of Kuwait was morally or legally justified.

I'm simply pointing out that the situation at that time between Kuwait and Iraq was far more involved than any of us can claim to fully understand.

I do hope you're not going to start suggesting that America's 2003 invasion of Iraq was morally or legally justified.

[awa355]

.

I do hope you're not going to start suggesting that America's 2003 invasion of Iraq was morally or legally justified.

According to G W Bush, they were "Doing Gods work". He didn't say which God's work tho.

[husaberg]

I've never claimed that Iraq's invasion of Kuwait was morally or legally justified.

I'm simply pointing out that the situation at that time between Kuwait and Iraq was far more involved than any of us can claim to fully understand.

I do hope you're not going to start suggesting that America's 2003 invasion of Iraq was morally or legally justified.

Your back peddling is getting pretty embarrassing........
You are making a fool of yourself yet again with your lack of understanding and comprehension of basic facts to back your own assertions.

[TheDemonLord]

Kuwait were producing more oil than the prevailing quota allowed - in a deliberate attempt to hurt Iraq through lower oil prices.

So its okay for Iraq to invade another country for commercial interests, but its not okay for America to invade another country for commercial interests?

Sounds like a bit of a double standard?

[Katman]

Your back peddling is getting pretty embarrassing........

I haven't back-peddled in the slightest.

[husaberg]

Kuwait were producing more oil than the prevailing quota allowed - in a deliberate attempt to hurt Iraq through lower oil prices.

So its okay for Iraq to invade another country for commercial interests, but its not okay for America to invade another country for commercial interests?

Sounds like a bit of a double standard?

You can't be holding the katamarangatang to logic
You are wasting your time, he will just say I never suggested that it was then attempt to change the subject.
he will sart beating on his chest a bit to try and make out he is right.
Then he will start the red repping..........

edit 15.57 he delivered his normal simple red rep simple is predictable, Katman is simple

[Katman]

So its okay for Iraq to invade another country for commercial interests, but its not okay for America to invade another country for commercial interests?

Your reading skills seem as poor as husaberg's.

Where did I say it was 'okay' for Iraq to invade Kuwait.

[TheDemonLord]

I do hope you're not going to start suggesting that America's 2003 invasion of Iraq was morally or legally justified.

(now this will really set the cat amongst the pidgeons)

I didn't support the 2003 invasion for only 2 key points:

1: America could easily win the military campaign - everyone knew that. But how do you win the political and social campaigns? what is even the conditions of victory? America was ill-prepared for this and IMO naively thought that if they went in all guns blazing like they did in Germany in 1945, everyone would love them.
2: They lied about the reasons - if they had simply said 'Saddam is a Genocidal psychopath who needs to be removed from power' - then I would have been fine with it, but instead they choose to go down a patently fabricated path in order to justify the war. Waging war over a lie is never a good idea.

The mess we see in Iraq now is solely down to point number 1.

However, the fact that the invasion has brought an end to the dictatorship of Saddam ultimately has been some form of success.