Flag?

[Katman]

It's a certain possibility, indeed it's the desired outcome for a rebrand.

Really?

Do you actually think that there will be a sudden surge of people visiting New Zealand because they want to see our new flag waving in the breeze?

I've said it before and I'll say it again - what a fucking moron.

[Katman]

I don't think a nation's flag should be viewed as a corporate logo.

And I think it should, thus the referendum.

While I don't necessarily buy into the theory that men and women have died over the years for our flag, your suggestion that it should be viewed simply as a corporate logo is probably one of the most repulsive things to have ever escaped your gob.

[nerrrd]

So we swap 'no it's different to Australia's one' to 'no it's a silver fern, not a fish skeleton/feather', which is what most of the rest of the world will see it as.

Got to love our democracy, where the opinion of less than 50% of eligible voters is a consistently seen as a 'mandate'. Still, better than nothing I guess.

[oldrider]

So we swap 'no it's different to Australia's one' to 'no it's a silver fern, not a fish skeleton/feather', which is what most of the rest of the world will see it as.

Got to love our democracy, where the opinion of less than 50% of eligible voters is a consistently seen as a 'mandate'. Still, better than nothing I guess.

True! - The only thing that will change will be the flag its self - if it changes!

[gjm]

So, as Erelyes mentioned, they already increased it by half a billion, do you not understand the concept of budgeting or something? Or do you just think your decision is somehow worth more than those who wish to democratically determine if it is time for a flag change?

Let's get some perspective, it's 26mil, around 5% of the health spending increase last year; which is around 0.2% of the total health spending for the year. And this is not a recurring cost, it's a one off, and we all (should) know govt shouldn't be bailing out institutions who can't work a budget, so really you'd want to spread that over 10 years, so it's getting even smaller than those tiny amounts listed before.

And that doesn't even begin to account for the other services that would also have hands firmly extended; education, roading, etc. Then you've also got the financial investment types which can turn such $ into more $$ for govt use (perhaps even pay for next years DHB increases), like tourism, export, etc. Actually those last two have a little bit to do with branding, perhaps we should look at changing an icon to better represent the country and make money that way...

So what could each DHB end up doing with $5 and a bag of chips?

Who increased what by $0.5bn? (To be fair, I've not looked into this.) As I said, the value of finance provided to the DHBs has decreased by $1.7bn over 6 years, and this year a further significant 'reduction in inefficiencies' (damn, that's funny coming from the government!) is expected from the DHBs nationwide.
If the $0.5bn is a recent addition (increase) to budgets, that suggests the actual decrease was closer to $2.2bn. Yay! Let's be happy the benevolent government has given a little of the money they took away, back to those who need it. Maybe even they realised it was impossible to provide adequate service while underfunding.

Perspective is required. $26m is a lot of money. (And not the end of the story, either, but you don't comment on that.) You seem to be suggesting $26m is insignificant. Does that mean the $350m for a US F22 fighter plane is also insignificant because it is such a small percentage of the US military budget ($580bn or more)? When does a small percentage become a significant quantity? I suggest the actual numbers are important (contrary to the message our lord and master keeps spouting on Breakfast TV) and entirely relevant.

Bail outs are not always appropriate, especially if there is evident poor management involved. However, the DHB I work for has met budgetary criteria, year on year on year, in the face of decreasing funding (in real terms). And then this year, in light of further cuts, they are $30m over budget to maintain the same service (while being wexpected, by the government, to increase service provision to an ever-growing client base). Is it fair that the $30m will be A Big Deal later and doubtless mentioned in the press as a shortcoming? After all, it's only a little more than $26m, so it doesn't really matter, right?

That doesn't mean I think the $26m for the flag referendum should have come to this DHB, but it does highlight poor governmental budgeting when they need economies and cut funding, but can suddenly shrug and throw $26m into the wind.

There's lots of other points I raised in trying to answer your earlier questions. Please could you comment on those, too? I'm especially interested to hear your thoughts regarding the government facilitation of the referendum allowing the people a free choice, while they then actively campaign for the change the referendum could bring. Doesn't sound at all unbiased, does it?

[gjm]

So we swap 'no it's different to Australia's one' to 'no it's a silver fern, not a fish skeleton/feather', which is what most of the rest of the world will see it as.

Got to love our democracy, where the opinion of less than 50% of eligible voters is a consistently seen as a 'mandate'. Still, better than nothing I guess.

Lol.

Interesting the endless stream of comments made around the fern being on gravestones and how if the flag is so important, why doesn't it appear there?

The fern on the wargraves is a closed fern, and a Maori symbol for death. It was chosen over the Manaia for several reasons, one being the overseas nature of the burials - I understand complexity of design was also a factor. What a great inspiration for a national flag!

[Trade_nancy]

So...if the silver fern is the iconic symbol to represent us on the new flag - if it wins...why is it WHITE and not silver?

[Moi]

So...if the silver fern is the iconic symbol to represent us on the new flag - if it wins...why is it WHITE and not silver?

There are only two "metals" used in heraldry - or which is gold and argent which is silver. These are shown on heraldic devices, such as coats-of-arms, as yellow or white. A flag is considered to be a heraldic device, hence the use of white for the silver fern.

The present flag uses azure [blue], gules [red] and argent.

[Banditbandit]

While I don't necessarily buy into the theory that men and women have died over the years for our flag, your suggestion that it should be viewed simply as a corporate logo is probably one of the most repulsive things to have ever escaped your gob.

I agrere .. however the neo-liberal bullshit since 1984 has turned Godzone into an international trading corporation ...

[Madness]

why is it WHITE and not silver?

Ever tried to dry the dishes using tinfoil?

[Erelyes]

That doesn't mean I think the $26m for the flag referendum should have come to this DHB, but it does highlight poor governmental budgeting when they need economies and cut funding, but can suddenly shrug and throw $26m into the wind.

First off, the bulk of the 26m is going to NZPost. Falling sales are causing them trouble. We could just bail them out, but getting them to post some mail seems like a better idea instead.

Let's have some more perspective then.

Are you 19 times more pissed off about the bailout of $500m to AMI?
Are you 46 times more pissed off about the bailout of $1.2bn to South Canterbury Finance?

Both companies that no doubt have overseas ownership (instead of being wholly NZ owned like the SOE that is NZPost) and in both cases was 'here's some money', rather than 'here's some money, do with it'.

Now, your 1.3m for each DHB - where are you going to find this each and every year? Or when I go to the DHB and ask what they could do with it, should I clarify that this is a one-off not to be repeated for the forseeable future (if ever)?

[Moi]

Have a wee read... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/ne...ectid=11595044

[Akzle]

Just the flag one, lets see how you cope with that before getting too carried away...

i object.
There needs to be option c) i dont need or want a flag, fuck off crackerjews.

[Akzle]

DOC Rangers come cheap.

it's a lifestyle job

[Akzle]

Still if the flag change is unsuccessful this time - like Arnold Schwarzenegger and General MacArthur - it will be back - and back - and back - until? -

until it becomes the governator of nz and legalises weed.
This idea has merit.