Flag?

**Ocean1** · 28th February 2016, 17:40

Originally Posted by Katman

At least I have my integrity.

And no doubt illiterate fuckwits with no credibility worldwide rejoice in your dedication to the cause.

And as such, and given your usual MO I'd have thought you'd be dead set against the continued use of the establishment's duly authorised corporate logo.

Or is it different when you say it is?

**gjm** · 28th February 2016, 18:38

Originally Posted by gjm

I've not spent any time looking at what the west island is doing.

I do quite like their alternative flag (if the one I saw is the prime candidate).

I do not like the design we're being offered. As I have said - a change is not necessarily a bad thing. But let's change for the right alternative, not one of 60% of similar designs selected by an unqualified, unelected group of people.

Originally Posted by bogan

Not a fan of democracy then?

Democracy is great in principle and theory (and based on that I am a fan), but rarely succeeds in keeping many people happy, or achieving the best result for the majority. It's a 'best efforts' approach to ruling. Benevolent dictatorship may be better, if you could count on the benevolence. We live with what we have and the current 'western' thought is that democracy is the best available solution.

The people of NZ had absolutely no say (beyond persuading the government to include the quickly dropped red triangle design) whatsoever in what the selection of flags might be. There were four, chosen without reference or democratic process by a self-admittedly unqualified group of people appointed by the gopvernment, plus the triangle. I suppose it would have been fair to say 75% of the designs included a fern, and 50% were all-but identical, but I was feeling generous.

Ocean1 has presented a valid case for change, which is more than I have typically seen elsewhere. I don't agree with him (her? I dunno!) but that's fine. It'd be boring if we all wanted the same thing.

I've made a case for it being a waste of money, and all you've done is tell me $26m isn't very much. That's your opinion. Me? I think $26m is a lot of money, regardless of circumstance. Did you see Bill English on TV earlier, trying so very, very hard to not say $millions is a lot of money while admitting the government doesn't have any spare funds?

And, just to keep you happy, I do think John Key is a despicable individual. I make this judgement by the way he is presented to the public, his history in banking, and by the number of lies we know he has told. I feel he has tainted the National Party and while I would consider the National Party position and policy, if it means he stays as Prime Minister I will not vote for them. That is specifically anti-John Key, not anti-new flag or anything else. (I keep saying a new flag may be a good idea, but you've chosen to ignore that.)

**Katman** · 28th February 2016, 18:45

Originally Posted by gjm

....but you've chosen to ignore that.)

Bogan ignores lots of things.

**bogan** · 28th February 2016, 19:03

Originally Posted by gjm

There were four, chosen without reference or democratic process by a self-admittedly unqualified group of people appointed by the gopvernment, plus the triangle. I suppose it would have been fair to say 75% of the designs included a fern, and 50% were all-but identical, but I was feeling generous.

There was ample time for submissions and consultation, that is democratic process. The people then decided the list was lacking and got another choice added, again this is democratic process. You just still seem bitter than the democratic process didn't give the result you wanted

Newsflash, it didn't give the result I wanted either, which makes the process just as sound as if it did.

Btw, I was infrefering the referendum's participants (kiwis) were the 'unqualified, unelected group of people.' to select the flag when I questioned your enthusiasm for democracy.

Originally Posted by gjm

I keep saying a new flag may be a good idea, but you've chosen to ignore that.

Is it relevant?

**gjm** · 28th February 2016, 19:46

Originally Posted by bogan

Btw, I was infrefering the referendum's participants (kiwis) were the 'unqualified, unelected group of people.' to select the flag when I questioned your enthusiasm for democracy.

And I was referring to the government-chosen and paid-for 'Flag Consideration Panel.' I don't expect the general public to be expert in all matters, but I do expect them to know what they like (and not need to be told or persuaded by someone else.)

As for relevancy of the change - you have assumed that I don't want it. I have said I would prefer to keep the current flag, but that relates to the current situation (any permutation of which, given the unqualified panel-selected subset of flags).

**bogan** · 28th February 2016, 19:50

Originally Posted by gjm

And I was referring to the government-chosen and paid-for 'Flag Consideration Panel.' I don't expect the general public to be expert in all matters, but I do expect them to know what they like (and not need to be told or persuaded by someone else.)

As for relevancy of the change - you have assumed that I don't want it. I have said I would prefer to keep the current flag, but that relates to the current situation (any permutation of which, given the unqualified panel-selected subset of flags).

Hang on, you say the panel didn't have experts on it (which it did), then say the general public is better suited to chose; which made up the rest of the panel. Can you outline exactly what process to select the flag shortlist would have made you happy?

So I assumed you don't want the change, and you don't want the change; I've also assumed you don't want the change because it isn't the change you wanted. Where is the relevance again?

**oldrider** · 28th February 2016, 20:00

Between 3 March and 24 March 2016, you’ll get to vote in the final binding referendum on the future of the New Zealand flag.

Can't come soon enough for me ..... stupid? pitiful? waste of money? pathetic? - so many men so many opinions - whatever the outcome!

**gjm** · 28th February 2016, 20:04

Originally Posted by oldrider

Between 3 March and 24 March 2016, you’ll get to vote in the final binding referendum on the future of the New Zealand flag.

Can't come soon enough for me ..... stupid? pitiful? waste of money? pathetic? - so many men so many opinions - whatever the outcome!

I'm going to blame you for this - you started the thread!

Lol

**gjm** · 28th February 2016, 20:06

Originally Posted by bogan

Hang on, you say the panel didn't have experts on it (which it did), then say the general public is better suited to chose; which made up the rest of the panel. Can you outline exactly what process to select the flag shortlist would have made you happy?

So I assumed you don't want the change, and you don't want the change; I've also assumed you don't want the change because it isn't the change you wanted. Where is the relevance again?

I quit. I've tried to be as clear as possible.

**bogan** · 28th February 2016, 20:11

Originally Posted by gjm

I quit. I've tried to be as clear as possible.

It's a simple question, perhaps the clarity of the answer is what you shy away from. Is it just because jk is involved you are against the process? Or is it because the outcome differs from that which you desire?

**gjm** · 28th February 2016, 20:46

Originally Posted by bogan

It's a simple question, perhaps the clarity of the answer is what you shy away from. Is it just because jk is involved you are against the process? Or is it because the outcome differs from that which you desire?

Oh, the answers are easy. No, and no.

As I have tried to explain.