You pricks are costing us taxpayers too much money

[rastuscat]

Damn it's nice to be vindicated.

From what I read, the stats show that we don't have to wait for everyone else to change to improve our safety. We can do it ourselves, now.

Ah well, I can only dream.

[Katman]

From what I read, the stats show that we don't have to wait for everyone else to change to improve our safety. We can do it ourselves, now.

And therein lies what should be our focus - improving our own statistics.

You can go the ATGATT route if you like but I'll stick with pushing the 'open your fucking eyes and switch your fucking brain on' route.

[rastuscat]

And therein lies what should be our focus - improving our own statistics.

You can go the ATGATT route if you like but I'll stick with pushing the 'open your fucking eyes and switch your fucking brain on' route.

Right. I'm leading a Ride Forever Bronze Course for 6 punters tomorrow.

I'll go with the OYFESYFBO route. Cheers Katman.

[caseye]

And therein lies what should be our focus - improving our own statistics.

You can go the ATGATT route if you like but I'll stick with pushing the 'open your fucking eyes and switch your fucking brain on' route.

Never been anything wrong with the message! 100% agree with it.
Keep singing KM.

[Bass]

Never been anything wrong with the message!

I'm not sure that I agree.
I have absolutely no evidence for it except for personal anecdotes but I have this strong feeling that the numbers we are talking about are driven more by riders deliberately pushing the envelope than carelessness. I think that their eyes are open and their brains are on, but because of the buzz they are taking it to the edge and sometimes beyond.

As I said, no evidence, so go ahead and prove me wrong.

I do however suggest that Berries' analysis supports this point of view

I also suggest that much of the problem is that " the edge" moves around a great deal, from place to place and from day to day. The other part of the problem is that many, if not most of us, are pretty incompetent at figuring out just where the edge is, especially in changing conditions and we tend to make no allowance for that.

Anyway, opinion only, so shoot me down but use some logic please.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Damn it's nice to be vindicated.

From what I read, the stats show that we don't have to wait for everyone else to change to improve our safety. We can do it ourselves, now.

Ah well, I can only dream.

Lets all get kneedown on some roundabouts!!!!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Right. I'm leading a Ride Forever Bronze Course for 6 punters tomorrow.

I'll go with the OYFESYFBO route. Cheers Katman.

kneedown on th curletts road roundabout!!!

[rastuscat]

kneedown on th curletts road roundabout!!!

Okay , here's what happened.

A great day out on the road. Beautiful weather, and 6 keen punters. All did well out on the road, despite some having been riding for no more than 4 weeks.

So we get back to the base, and do some warm down exercises. One lad with 6 weeks experience low sides his bike.

I ask him what happened and here is his reply. "When I lean to the left my footpeg tells me when I'm far enough over. I thought my right hand side would be the same"

Trouble is his muffler caught the road before his footpeg did. And low side he did.

Just as well he wasn't using that logic on the Sockburn Roundabout.

[varminter]

So that's what the pegs are for, silly me, I thought they were to put your feet on.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Okay , here's what happened.

A great day out on the road. Beautiful weather, and 6 keen punters. All did well out on the road, despite some having been riding for no more than 4 weeks.

So we get back to the base, and do some warm down exercises. One lad with 6 weeks experience low sides his bike.

I ask him what happened and here is his reply. "When I lean to the left my footpeg tells me when I'm far enough over. I thought my right hand side would be the same"

Trouble is his muffler caught the road before his footpeg did. And low side he did.

Just as well he wasn't using that logic on the Sockburn Roundabout.

Oh dear. I presume he is OK - just with dented pride.

Need to tell him knee down is cool but "whole of body down" less so

You do tell them about moving their bumz over and weighting the inside peg and all that malarkey, right?

[pritch]

You do tell them about moving their bumz over and weighting the inside peg and all that malarkey, right?

Outside peg but otherwise yeah. After four weeks they'll be gagging for a track day.

[5ive]

You do tell them about moving their bumz over and weighting the inside peg and all that malarkey, right?

I don't think that many instructors do that at all (or in depth) unfortunately. Probably has a lot to do with numbers attending, time available, experience levels, and bike types. Plus once passed the beginner levels of riding, they don't want to discourage (hate me but it's true) older riders who are shit at riding, and need the training, because the few that turn up may eventually encourage other 'experienced' riders to return and get some training in the future if it catches on.

Most instructors only cover the bare basics of low speed handling, some basic road postitioning, and most of the road rules (but not in depth) depending on the route taken.

This is just my opinion based on multiple Bronze and Silver course experiences, across multiple instructors/testers in different locations in the last two years, as well as the basic handling test/training/restricted license/full license.

Nearly all of the instructors are now giving a lecture on the road ACC road accident/death statistics prior to riding out (lame but neccessary for their funding), and fully implicates those older riders as previously mentioned.

Best I've had is one instructor who has racing experience, and has proffesionally trained stunt rider/actors for film and television work overseas, who covers the basics for the beginners, but also gives advanced advice when able as well as road side demonstrations of 'proper' riding techniques. We got a lot of training in during the course that time, but probably only because the majoity of us were 'competent' so we could skip the basics.

I like the courses that are available as I do plenty of riding alone and with groups, and like to futher my knowledge and experience of riding as much as possible, but wish that the courses available were a little bit more tailor-made to suit experience/individuals rather than just one-size-fits-all.

[Swoop]

Other vehicle at fault
U-turns – 16

Well, that will blow the police budget for the year...

[rastuscat]

I don't think that many instructors do that at all (or in depth) unfortunately. Probably has a lot to do with numbers attending, time available, experience levels, and bike types. Plus once passed the beginner levels of riding, they don't want to discourage (hate me but it's true) older riders who are shit at riding, and need the training, because the few that turn up may eventually encourage other 'experienced' riders to return and get some training in the future if it catches on.

Most instructors only cover the bare basics of low speed handling, some basic road postitioning, and most of the road rules (but not in depth) depending on the route taken.

This is just my opinion based on multiple Bronze and Silver course experiences, across multiple instructors/testers in different locations in the last two years, as well as the basic handling test/training/restricted license/full license.

Nearly all of the instructors are now giving a lecture on the road ACC road accident/death statistics prior to riding out (lame but neccessary for their funding), and fully implicates those older riders as previously mentioned.

Best I've had is one instructor who has racing experience, and has proffesionally trained stunt rider/actors for film and television work overseas, who covers the basics for the beginners, but also gives advanced advice when able as well as road side demonstrations of 'proper' riding techniques. We got a lot of training in during the course that time, but probably only because the majoity of us were 'competent' so we could skip the basics.

I like the courses that are available as I do plenty of riding alone and with groups, and like to futher my knowledge and experience of riding as much as possible, but wish that the courses available were a little bit more tailor-made to suit experience/individuals rather than just one-size-fits-all.

The Bronze Course is aimed at relative beginners.

We don't cover intricate things, as there are a lot of basics to cover before we start addressing the advanced techniques.

Such things as not putting yourself in stupid blindspots and active position management take time to embed, but are so important.

The Bronze Course is also aimed at those wanting to pass their CBTA 6R test. Such things as trail braking and weighting the outside footpeg are normally not covered as the students are relatively inexperienced. As was the case today.

It's hard enough to get the basics into people's habits without trying to turn beginners into Valentino Rossi within 1 day.

The guy in question was solid enough, but his attempt at being Rossi ended in tears. Nil injuries (phew) but his crash bungs got a good workout.

On our Silver and Gold courses we cover more advanced skills, but it's tailored to the group and their skill levels.

[5ive]

Yeah, I appreciate what you do, and the scope of the Bronze course. I have still found some value in doing the Bronze and Silver courses multiple times with different instructors/attendees in different locations and during both winter/summer though. I've also encountered some more 'experienced' riders who may benefit from some training in lower speed zones, including low speed handling and emergency braking, so aiming the Bronze course soley at newer riders may not be the ideal situation if we want to improve the skills of all NZ riders.

The Gold course also doesn't seem like a raising of the benchmark (description wise) if the Bronze and Silver courses are to go by... the main points of difference to the Silver course (instructor wise) only seems to be things like carrying a pillion, and towing a load. Plus it will still probably still come down to the instructor and skill level of the attendees on the day...

I need/want to do a Gold course though, but have previously assumed I'm too new to riding to do one yet, as I've only just been riding for two years. Will do one soon though once I have some free time.