North Korea

[TheDemonLord]

Let's go back to the Middle East for a second.

In countries like Iraq you have many factions that appear to hate each other. Saddam Hussein (for all his faults) kept Iraq stable. And he did so via a totalitarian regime.

The place is now a clusterfuck.

So much for your idealistic dream of the West saving the world.

Freedom is the idealism, not the west. I think certain western values have objectively demonstrated that they are the best set of values that Humanity have yet to come up with. And yes, Iraq is a Clusterfuck - but those groups now have a series of options:

- They could go back to the old Totalitarian ways (which depressingly, is a possibility)
- They could also realise how they can exist together.

In the case of the latter, with freedom, it's possible for them to solve their problems themselves. It's not an overnight process - hell, in Europe we were at each others throats for centuries - and you could argue that we are still working and learning at it.

What the fuck does your 'value judgement' have to do with the people who have to suffer through being the playthings of the West?

Do you think they gain some sort of solace in the thought that you're sitting there on your fat arse happy to watch them suffer - even for a short term?

On the one hand - you have being the plaything of a murderous, totalitarian dictator - where a careless word or thought could see you and your entire family tortured and murdered. With no possibility of reprieve or respite.
On the other hand - you have "Being the playthings of the west" - where through bad luck, you might get you or your family shot or killed by an explosion. With the possibility of Peace and Freedom.

Ask yourself - which would you prefer? Torture and murder - with no possibility of change. Or take your chances with Bombs and bullets in the pursuit of freedom and peace?

And furthermore - the overwhelming consensus from people who've lived through such totalitarian regimes is rather interesting - They'd rather take their chances...

[Voltaire]

Red Rep how quaint.

Thread: North Korea

Dude, you couldn't be any less Voltaire-like if you tried. Open your fucking mind for a change.

[Katman]

Freedom is the idealism....

Like Mr Viking said a few posts earlier (and said it far more eloquently and succinctly than I ever could), there is a very high probability that these actions have nothing to do with the freedom of the people concerned.

[Katman]

And furthermore - the overwhelming consensus from people who've lived through such totalitarian regimes is rather interesting - They'd rather take their chances...

Really?

Have you spoken to them all?

[Katman]

Red Rep how quaint.

Dry your eyes princess.

[TheDemonLord]

Like Mr Viking said a few posts earlier (and said it far more eloquently and succinctly than I ever could), there is a very high probability that these actions have nothing to do with the freedom of the people concerned.

There's a point in there - but I don't think you can completely divorce the freedom aspect. In multiple threads I've acknowledged that one of the reason there are so many African warlords is because there is a lack of benefit for going in and getting rid of them.

Really?

Have you spoken to them all?

I've spoken to several - they generally have a great love for their country, a strong dislike for the dictator and a mild dislike for the west.

[Katman]

I've spoken to several - they generally have a great love for their country, a strong dislike for the dictator and a mild dislike for the west.

Several?

Out of how many?

[TheDemonLord]

Several?

Out of how many?

Several, from different areas.

I mean - if you've interviewed every single person from those countries - then sure, let's put it up against that....

However - as a secondary consideration - which way does the migration happen - are people jumping in rickety boats to enter these countries, or are they jumping in rickety boats to escape to the west?

That should speak to what their thoughts are on the matter.

[Katman]

I mean - if you've interviewed every single person from those countries - then sure, let's put it up against that....

I'm not the one claiming to know what the 'overwhelming concensus' is.

However - as a secondary consideration - which way does the migration happen - are people jumping in rickety boats to enter these countries, or are they jumping in rickety boats to escape to the west?

Are more leaving in rickety boats than are staying?

[Katman]

It's been estimated that upward of 10% of the Rohingya people have fled Myanmar fearing for their lives. (And I note that America hasn't done fuck all about that one).

What percentage of North Korean people have fled their country?

[pritch]

And yet...

It was Trump that did it.

Not Obama.
Not Bush Jr.
Not Clinton.
Not Bush Sr.
Not Reagan.
Not Carter.
Not Ford.
Not Nixon.
Not Johnson.
Not Kennedy.
Not Eisenhower
and Not Truman.

And whilst I'm sure sanctions, withdrawal of international support and the Death of Kim Jong Il all had a part to play, I also suspect that Trump's rhetoric directed at the Regime was ALSO a factor.

Maybe you should quit the electric puha. It isn't that DPRK wouldn't come to talks, in recent decades it's that the US didn't want to give them credibility. Trump just wanted a "win". Oh, and a new hotel and maybe a resort?

Now nobody except the two dictators (and their interpreters) know what was actually said and they are both telling a different story.

Smoke and mirrors.

[Katman]

Maybe you should quit the electric puha.

That's not what makes him sound so stupid.

[jasonu]

It's been estimated that upward of 10% of the Rohingya people have fled Myanmar fearing for their lives. (And I note that America hasn't done fuck all about that one).

What percentage of North Korean people have fled their country?

Estimated by who?
Did NZ do anything about it?
Egg.

[Katman]

Did NZ do anything about it?

Well we contributed $1.5 million in humanitarian aid. (Which miserable cunts like you probably still moaned about).

Meanwhile America's idea of aid is supplying Saudi Arabia with the means to bomb the fuck out of Yemen and supplying Israel with the means to slaughter stone throwing Palestinians.

[carbonhed]

Let's go back to the Middle East for a second.

In countries like Iraq you have many factions that appear to hate each other. Saddam Hussein (for all his faults) kept Iraq stable. And he did so via a totalitarian regime.

Damn! I must have dreamed the Iran Iraq war and the invasion of Kuwait and the gassing of the Kurds and... hang on a minute... never engage with a fucking retard on the internet... back slowly awaaaaay.