The firearm thread

[leeroy996]

Most people I know that own guns (pretty much everyone I know here) have multiple styles of firearms for recreational purposes.

Some my friends have firearms for recreation but all say they have them for self defense. Some will carry a knife if they don't have a concealed weapons permit. Some have a hand gun strapped under the steering wheel. The Castle Doctrine also applies to vehicles, so you can use deadly force on an angry driver that opens your door.

[jasonu]

if your mates want to shoot in nz all they need to do is prove they own a gun legally and prove they have done a
firearms safety course and pay $25, good for 12 months, this is the same for any country like the USA that doesn't
actually have a licencing system.
Check out nz police websight if you think this could not possibly be true.

In America if you want to buy a gun from a licensed dealer (Federal Firearms License holder) you must pass a background check performed by the FBI. You pay the dealer a fee (about $10) they make the phone call and you get an OK, no, or wait for a certain amount of time (for further checking). It generally takes about 15 minutes to get the answer. Most private citizens (me included) selling firearms will insist on meeting the buyer at a dealers so they can perform the background check.
If a non USC tries to buy a gun he will almost certainly not get an immediate OK from the FBI. That happened to me the first time I bought a gun from a dealer. I had to wait for a couple of days for the OK from the FBI. Now they know me the check takes a matter of minutes.

[Graystone]

The point I'm making is we have less Trucks than Firearms, more Deaths due to Trucks vs Firearms, Both Firearms and Trucks provide beneficial roles (Pest Control is a big thing in NZ), both can be abused by Terrorists to cause a large amount of deaths in a short amount of time.

What are the comparative murder rates? Which one actually is being used by terrorists to cause a large amount of deaths? I know you live in fairyland where you get to chose the probability of anything even remotely possible, but lets pay a little bit of attention to reality eh!

[Pound]

The question then becomes one of perspectives.

Indeed.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.




The thing that I have learnt after reading almost every comment on this thread is that no matter what side you are on (Pro or Anti gun) facts and statistics will be manipulated and twisted to try and justify the argument for both for vs against.

The argumentation is circular, and never ending, which is sadly what happens when you throw personal bias into the equation (as opposed to using only pure facts, logic, and objectivity).

I am actually in quite a good position to argue (if I wanted a never ending argument that is), since I have no agendas to push, nor am I a gun owner, nor have i ever even held a gun in my life.
I am also definitely not anti gun either, and if somebody ever gave me the opportunity to hold/fire a semi auto/hand gun, I would jump at the chance, because what red blooded man doesn't like military grade weapons technology?

With all that being said, I respect a man who stands by what he believes in (even if he is wrong)

[Pound]

In fact this sort of thing particularly annoys me.......

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/chr...r-the-top-raid

[jasonu]

In fact this sort of thing particularly annoys me.......

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/chr...r-the-top-raid

Talk about low hanging fruit. How often will you hear about the pigs doing the same to known gang hangouts? The same gangs that publicly stated they will not be handing in their weapons.

[Pound]

This is exactly the sort of "liberal leftest" knee jerk reaction that does nothing but create negative attitudes toward legitimate gun ownership and use.

[husaberg]

This is exactly the sort of "liberal leftest" knee jerk reaction that does nothing but create negative attitudes toward legitimate gun ownership and use.

So does a radical right winger running around killing 50 people promote legitimate gun ownership and use.
Especially considering he was vetted the same as the other gun licence holders, Under a system that the gun lobby group described as the best in the world and in no need of any changes whatsoever further describing having a different class sof licence for Semi autos as being pointless?

Anyone who cant understand why police would send multiple armed police to a house where they know the suspect has firearms is a blithering idiot who should never have access to an air rifle let alone a AR15

"I can't understand why they needed that many armed police to come in here to ask me my views on this and then seize my gun."

You have to wonder the things he never said for instance did he also happen to purchase a number of large magizines as well

[Pound]

So does a radical right winger running around killing 50 people promote legitimate gun ownership and use.
Especially considering he was vetted the same as the other gun licence holders, Under a system that the gun lobby group described as the best in the world and in no need of any changes whatsoever further describing having a different class sof licence for Semi autos as being pointless?

Anyone who cant understand why police would send multiple armed police to a house where they know the suspect has firearms is a blithering idiot who should never have access to an air rifle let alone a AR15



You have to wonder the things he never said for instance did he also happen to purchase a number of large magizines as well

Absolutey agree with you regarding the right wing extremists too.

Despite all of that though, it was rather over the top of the police allt he same...... They really could have handled that better.....

Why can't everybody just have a balanced, unbiased viewpoint like you and I?

[husaberg]

Absolutey agree with you regarding the right wing extremists too.

Despite all of that though, it was rather over the top of the police allt he same...... They really could have handled that better.....

Why can't everybody just have a balanced, unbiased viewpoint like you and I?

Only issue is you are responding only to one side of the story the police hasnt made a statement in regards to what he both have said Both can say whatever they like unchecked, the police can not.
What you can say is based on what the article says assuming it true the police may have reacted over the top based on what is said to have occured. Knowing what they now know.
The police have been killed not using the appropriate precautions dating back to Stan Graham they tend to err on the side of caution sometimes for good reason.

[Pound]

Only issue is you are responding only to one side of the story the police hasnt made a statement in regards to what he both have said Both can say whatever they like unchecked, the police can not.
What you can say is based on what the article says assuming it true the police may have reacted over the top based on what is said to have occured. Knowing what they now know.
The police have been killed not using the appropriate precautions dating back to Stan Graham they tend to err on the side of caution sometimes for good reason.

I understand that, but with the facts provided in said article, I still agree that it was over the top, especially here in NZ, but maybe not so in Americland, where mass shootings are far more common than they ever will be here....

[TheDemonLord]

What are the comparative murder rates? Which one actually is being used by terrorists to cause a large amount of deaths?

Let's See:

Nice, London Bridge, Barcelona, New York

vs

Christchurc

So, you tell me - which one is actually being used by Terrorists?

I know you live in fairyland where you get to chose the probability of anything even remotely possible, but lets pay a little bit of attention to reality eh!

Well, let's pick Nice - 87 dead vs 51 dead - so which is more deadly?

Also - have you decided on a set of principals when the Government can vote in opposition to what the Majority want yet? Or are you just going to hide and red-rep because you know you can't?

[TheDemonLord]

Indeed.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

The thing that I have learnt after reading almost every comment on this thread is that no matter what side you are on (Pro or Anti gun) facts and statistics will be manipulated and twisted to try and justify the argument for both for vs against.

The argumentation is circular, and never ending, which is sadly what happens when you throw personal bias into the equation (as opposed to using only pure facts, logic, and objectivity).

I am actually in quite a good position to argue (if I wanted a never ending argument that is), since I have no agendas to push, nor am I a gun owner, nor have i ever even held a gun in my life.
I am also definitely not anti gun either, and if somebody ever gave me the opportunity to hold/fire a semi auto/hand gun, I would jump at the chance, because what red blooded man doesn't like military grade weapons technology?

With all that being said, I respect a man who stands by what he believes in (even if he is wrong)

Fair enough - The ultimate issue for me - is that it's fine if someone doesn't like Guns. The part I get annoyed with is when they use the tyranny of the State to push through their viewpoint. And I do use the word Tyranny for a reason - the Article you posted is it.

There's some ancillary things - such as no other alternatives were considered, the hearing process wasn't objective, the submissions process only allowing 1 day for public submissions, the legislation itself having multiple items that don't make technical sense or are reliant on the police to interpret the legislation (they don't, that's why there are Courts an Judges)

There's a secondary issue - which is that there are numerous instances throughout history of a certain chains of Events:

Far-Left governments use a tragedy to enact stringent Firearm control to disarm the Population > Firearms are confiscated > Law Abiding Citizens are targeted by heavy-handed Police or specialist units > Government cracks down on speech and actions that it deems 'dangerous' > People resist the restrictions on their freedoms > The government grants itself further powers under the guise of protections > The government suspends normal judiciary processes due to 'national emergency' > Genocide and Mass Torture.

Some people see us at step 4 out of an 8 step path.

[Katman]

There's a secondary issue - which is that there are numerous instances throughout history of a certain chains of Events:

Far-Left governments use a tragedy to enact stringent Firearm control to disarm the Population > Firearms are confiscated > Law Abiding Citizens are targeted by heavy-handed Police or specialist units > Government cracks down on speech and actions that it deems 'dangerous' > People resist the restrictions on their freedoms > The government grants itself further powers under the guise of protections > The government suspends normal judiciary processes due to 'national emergency' > Genocide and Mass Torture.

Some people see us at step 4 out of an 8 step path.

Now if I'd said that, I'd be called a conspiracy theorist.

(By the way, the first step should read 'use or engineer a tragedy').

[husaberg]

I understand that, but with the facts provided in said article, I still agree that it was over the top, especially here in NZ, but maybe not so in Americland, where mass shootings are far more common than they ever will be here....

But how can you say they are facts they are a persons opinion.One who might have a real good reason not to tell the truth, You might find the police consider it different, I also note one of the people were not even named.
WHy is that how is it he gets to accuse from a position of anonymity. Ask any prison guard if you ask a inmate almost to a person not a single one ever admits hes guilty of the crime.
I know the official police protocol is to raid at dawn or similar unexpected time with no warning with a large armed force they as far as i know also do this when a protection order is taken out against a person who has a firearm.
Do you really expect for the police to say hey look were are coming over with one unarmed officer at 5pm on friday to confiscate your firearm?