The firearm thread

[FJRider]

Sure, All security can be bypassed eventually - As someone in IT, I'm more than aware of this - the key concepts are Deterrent (stopping the opportunist) and the time required to break in.

Quite a few people think its safe and ok to run red lights if the opportunity presents itself. Sometimes it works out. And that's because some value their life and liberty less than others. And others think they won't get caught. Sometimes they aren't.

Opportunist thieves try for the obvious. Leaving stuff on the back seat or back window is tantamount to an invitation to steal it. Would you expect sympathy from Police if you stuff got stolen in this manner .. ??

Right - so firstly, do we have any hard stats that this is the means by which the items are stolen? Next is we need to understand why people might store them in this way:

Habit?
Low security risk due to being in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere?
Need quick and easy access?

We should assume that the people doing this are rational, and that they have a reason for doing what they do - dictating laws from up high with no appreciation is bad - hence why I stated that first a community lead solution is preferable - other people who have similar circumstances might be able to provide alternatives.

I know of five cases where this has happened. Three cases turned out to be their friends that took them ... so they wouldn't get stolen.

Yep ... intelligent and rational. Just didn't see it as a big issue.

I know what you mean about Community - and I'm not too fond of the word - but what other word is there?

Try ... Firearms OWNERS.

A firearms owner is just as likely to be found in an office in Queen street Auckland ... as in the back blocks of Ranfurly Otago.

Calling them a community suggests they live/work closely together with the same goals. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But the journilist that coined the phrase ... probably didn't know that.

[FJRider]

Yes.

plus 10 chars

Prove it ...

[R650R]

Great comment seen today on our local police page...
“ it’s not a buyback as the police never owned the guns. It’s a PAID Confiscation”

[TheDemonLord]

I'm glad you agree ... But ... In cases like this ... you seldom hear the full story. Because Police dont like to reveal how/where they get their information.

We know where they got the information - his Public Submission... Which is a massive breach of principles.

Gangs are a danger to themselves. Shooting each other up saves Police resources (and Police Bullets).

Ah yes, because Bullets fired by Gangs can only hurt or kill other Gang Members, never innocent people....

You have a really sick mind if you see similarities between the two. The Jews were not offered money for their time, possessions, or their lives.

And if they were, by your standards, that would have been A-Okay, completely voluntary, done at Gunpoint.

[TheDemonLord]

Quite a few people think its safe and ok to run red lights if the opportunity presents itself. Sometimes it works out. And that's because some value their life and liberty less than others. And others think they won't get caught. Sometimes they aren't.

Opportunist thieves try for the obvious. Leaving stuff on the back seat or back window is tantamount to an invitation to steal it. Would you expect sympathy from Police if you stuff got stolen in this manner .. ??

Sympathy, no - but I would expect them to do their job.

I know of five cases where this has happened. Three cases turned out to be their friends that took them ... so they wouldn't get stolen.

Yep ... intelligent and rational. Just didn't see it as a big issue.

So, realistically, 2 cases. However the question would be for these people - why did they do what they did? Would a fiat of the Law change their behavior? Is there another means to encourage better practices or have appropriate penalties for failing to take reasonable precautions?

Try ... Firearms OWNERS.

A firearms owner is just as likely to be found in an office in Queen street Auckland ... as in the back blocks of Ranfurly Otago.

Calling them a community suggests they live/work closely together with the same goals. Nothing could be farther from the truth. But the journilist that coined the phrase ... probably didn't know that.

I think I can safely say that there are the shared goals of:

An enjoyment of Guns and Shooting
and
A Desire to ensure that their rights are protected.

[TheDemonLord]

Prove it ...

Can you point to a time in history where arbitrarily removing the rights from a group of people went well?

Turns out the resentment at being persecuted by the state for something you didn't do (and subsequently we have definitive proof that the State were Negligent as Fuck) is a great breeding ground for certain ideas.

And some people might dwell on those ideas long enough with a view to act on them.

[FJRider]

Can you point to a time in history where arbitrarily removing the rights from a group of people went well?

Firearms ownership rules and laws have little to do with your "Rights". You have of course the "Right" to apply for a firearms license ... but do not have the right to have one ... "As of Right".

If laws are changed ... you do not have the right to break the law. For example ... if an open road speed limit is lowered in any area ... you no longer have the legal "Right" to travel at the previous speed limit in THAT area. If you do ... you know the possible penalties for doing so. If you still choose to do that.

Turns out the resentment at being persecuted by the state for something you didn't do (and subsequently we have definitive proof that the State were Negligent as Fuck) is a great breeding ground for certain ideas.

Fuck you come out with some shit. You must be sick in the head if you actually believe half of what you post ...

Areas with a high accident rate ... now get a speed limit reduction as an automatic reaction to the "Problem". Do the motorists that had been obeying the speed limits and driving to the conditions ... believe they have the right to feel "Persecuted" ... punished for other peoples stupidity and ignorance .. ???

Actually ... maybe ... YOU probably DO ...

And some people might dwell on those ideas long enough with a view to act on them.

Perhaps it is time more people are held more accountable for their actions. Throw away the wet bus ticket ... and use a big hammer.

They might not be so keen then to start acting on their "Ideas" ...

[TheDemonLord]

Firearms ownership rules and laws have little to do with your "Rights". You have of course the "Right" to apply for a firearms license ... but do not have the right to have one ... "As of Right".

If laws are changed ... you do not have the right to break the law. For example ... if an open road speed limit is lowered in any area ... you no longer have the legal "Right" to travel at the previous speed limit in THAT area. If you do ... you know the possible penalties for doing so. If you still choose to do that.

You appear to be subscribing to the Continental notion that Rights are granted and revoked by the State.

I subscribe to the British notion that Rights are Natural and are only protected by the State. The State may say I can no longer do something, but I still consider it my right to do it.

Fuck you come out with some shit. You must be sick in the head if you actually believe half of what you post ...

Areas with a high accident rate ... now get a speed limit reduction as an automatic reaction to the "Problem". Do the motorists that had been obeying the speed limits and driving to the conditions ... believe they have the right to feel "Persecuted" ... punished for other peoples stupidity and ignorance .. ???

Actually ... maybe ... YOU probably DO ...

Now let's bring your analogy a little closer to the reality - the Government builds a road in one area that is not safe to drive on, making the surface out of slippery glass, instead of Asphalt, with a major accident occuring.

As a result the Government takes all cars from everyone in the country, at gun point, paying you 75% of the value of the car and telling you that you can have a Moped or use public transport.

That's a little bit closer - see how it sounds unjustifiable?

Perhaps it is time more people are held more accountable for their actions. Throw away the wet bus ticket ... and use a big hammer.

I completely agree....

Starting with those in the Beehive.

[FJRider]

Sympathy, no - but I would expect them to do their job.

You mean ... make some inquiries ...

So, realistically, 2 cases. However the question would be for these people - why did they do what they did? Would a fiat of the Law change their behavior? Is there another means to encourage better practices or have appropriate penalties for failing to take reasonable precautions?

The same reason people exceed the posted speed limits ... because it suits them at the time. They know it's not right (or their right to do so) ... but they do anyway.

I think I can safely say that there are the shared goals of:

An enjoyment of Guns and Shooting
and
A Desire to ensure that their rights are protected.

BULLSHIT .. !!! Some have the goal of shooting a few Rabbits ... Wild Pigs maybe ... a Deer even.

Others have the goal to shoot a few Muslims ...

And see my other post regarding my views on "Rights" ...

[FJRider]

We know where they got the information - his Public Submission... Which is a massive breach of principles.

You have principals .. ?? Who knew .. ??

Ah yes, because Bullets fired by Gangs can only hurt or kill other Gang Members, never innocent people....

There's only a few of us "Innocent" ones left. Give me the date of the last innocent bystander shot in a gang shooting ..

And if they were, by your standards, that would have been A-Okay, completely voluntary, done at Gunpoint.

I spent a bit of time in the Army ... it was my job to use all the military weapons now frowned on in private ownership (and more besides).

The thrill has gone. That often happens ... when the targets shoot back ...

I have never possessed a firearms license. Nor do I intend to apply for one. But if I had weapons that were being removed from the class I WAS licensed for ... and they were paying cash money for them ... I sure WOULD BE ok with it.

[FJRider]

You appear to be subscribing to the Continental notion that Rights are granted and revoked by the State.

You do not have a RIGHT to own a firearm as of right. You can't lose what you never had.

I subscribe to the British notion that Rights are Natural and are only protected by the State. The State may say I can no longer do something, but I still consider it my right to do it.

Now let's bring your analogy a little closer to the reality - the Government builds a road in one area that is not safe to drive on, making the surface out of slippery glass, instead of Asphalt, with a major accident occuring.

As a result the Government takes all cars from everyone in the country, at gun point, paying you 75% of the value of the car and telling you that you can have a Moped or use public transport.

That's a little bit closer - see how it sounds unjustifiable?

I missed the REALITY part of that post. Care to point it out ..

You are not only sick in the head ... you have a vivid an imagination as well ...

There are drugs that can help that ...

I completely agree....

Starting with those in the Beehive.

A good place to start ...

[TheDemonLord]

The same reason people exceed the posted speed limits ... because it suits them at the time. They know it's not right (or their right to do so) ... but they do anyway.

Sure, I can hear that argument, has Speed enforcement stopped people speeding? If no, then it seems the threat of getting caught or the penalty isn't the solution.

TBULLSHIT .. !!! Some have the goal of shooting a few Rabbits ... Wild Pigs maybe ... a Deer even.

Others have the goal to shoot a few Muslims ...

Pretty sure that comes under the auspices of 'enjoyment of Shooting'

As for the last part - his ultimate goal was a world-wide race war, resulting in mass de-population to allow the Environment to Flourish.

He had quite a lot in common with the likes of Greenpeace and Extinction rebellion. Just a thought.

[TheDemonLord]

You have principals .. ?? Who knew .. ??

Not mine, the Governments

There's only a few of us "Innocent" ones left. Give me the date of the last innocent bystander shot in a gang shooting ..

Do you want to take the chance?

A friend of mine got woken up by what he thought was a car backfiring - turns out it was a Gang shooting, he went outside to see what happened (didn't realise it was Gunfire) - what if they had taken a shot at him?

I spent a bit of time in the Army ... it was my job to use all the military weapons now frowned on in private ownership (and more besides).

The thrill has gone. That often happens ... when the targets shoot back ...

I have never possessed a firearms license. Nor do I intend to apply for one. But if I had weapons that were being removed from the class I WAS licensed for ... and they were paying cash money for them ... I sure WOULD BE ok with it.

And firstly - I'm genuinely thankful for your service.

For the last part however - It's easy to say you'd be okay with it, when you have no skin in the game. When you've invested your own time, money and effort into something, it changes things.

[TheDemonLord]

You do not have a RIGHT to own a firearm as of right. You can't lose what you never had.

I missed the REALITY part of that post. Care to point it out ..

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/su...atural-rights/

There you go, knock yourself out.

Only the foundational basis of Western Civilization that spawned the unique idea that each person had a number of god-given or natural rights which the State cannot infringe upon. Which lead to the greatest advances in Human Rights (derived from the concept of a Natural Right) and decreasing in Human Suffering.

It is only the idea that *literally* underpins every freedom that we enjoy...
It is only the idea that is the philosophical reason as to why we hold such revulsion when a state infringes upon those natural rights.

Afterall, if all rights are granted by the State, that includes the right to life, and if it is granted by the state, it can be revoked by the State.

You are not only sick in the head ... you have a vivid an imagination as well ...

There are drugs that can help that ...

Just filling in the few omissions to make your story a little more aligned to what actually happened.

A good place to start ...

At least we agree on that.

[FJRider]

Sure, I can hear that argument, has Speed enforcement stopped people speeding? If no, then it seems the threat of getting caught or the penalty isn't the solution.

Some will never pay their fines ... because they have no money.

Some are even happy to go to jail for a few months to get their fines cancelled. Go figure ...

Fines are a good idea in principal. For those that HAVE principals.

Pretty sure that comes under the auspices of 'enjoyment of Shooting'

Those shooting rabbits ... wont be having much to do with those shooting Muslims. Hardly a "Shared Enjoyment" ...

Would YOU be happy to go shooting with him ...

As for the last part - his ultimate goal was a world-wide race war, resulting in mass de-population to allow the Environment to Flourish.

His imagination must be as huge and demented as yours. You probably WOULD like to go shooting with him ...

He had quite a lot in common with the likes of Greenpeace and Extinction rebellion. Just a thought.

To my knowledge ... Greenpeace don't use firearms. And you don't think.