The journey that COVID-19 will take us on

[MarkH]

So, get yourself vaccinated - then if it's as bad as everyone is making it out, then those who aren't will die off and Evolution will advance a small step.

Also as a reminder - the Vaccine does not stop you from being able to spread the Virus, so I really wish they would stop with that insinuation.

I'm fully vaxed, but thanks for the suggestion.
I've never said the vaccine stops a person from being able to spread the virus, BUT: a vaccinated person is MUCH less likely to contract and spread the virus than a non-vaccinated person.
Unfortunately the death rate is very low, so unvaccinated people are more likely to contract the virus, pass on the virus, get sick and need hospital treatment and then keep on living and being selfish idiots.

[MarkH]

Have you considered that some people are not anti-vax, but they are very much anti-mandate?

This bullying, apartheid, protection racket system that is being proposed is both massively illiberal, Authoritarian and an affront to the natural rights of the individual.

Nope. There are some anti-vax people that try to claim to be anti-mandate, but the reality is that they believe some anti-science nonsense and because of it they don't want to get vaccinated.
There is no apartheid and every single person in NZ is free to choose to not get vaccinated. There is, as always, consequences to the choices people make and those consequences might include needing to find a different job or not being able to go to a concert - but that is fine, for the health of the entire society we need to have some rules to protect the majority from the selfish.

This natural rights of the individual BS sounds like double speak for "I want to be selfish and would rather let people die than accept current medical science".
There are plenty of rules in society that mean that people are denied the freedom to do certain things, no society in the world exists with absolute freedom for people to do anything they want to.
The fact is that people being vaccinated or not does affect other people, it isn't JUST about the person being vaccinated.

[F5 Dave]

Perhaps TDL should self isolate with a lock on the outside and smear himself with covid and have a long drawn out discussion with a virus about his rights as an individual.

Be sure to be firm with it. Its probably a dirty left leaning virus and needs to be put to rights with strong arguments about your self worth and importance.

[FJRider]

So, get yourself vaccinated - then if it's as bad as everyone is making it out, then those who aren't will die off and Evolution will advance a small step.

A small step backwards in Evolution you mean. The ones with a poor immune system ... the elderly ... and those weaker one's (already struggling with various medical issues) will be lining up (if they haven't already) for the vaccines. The very ones that usually died off during the various plagues that have infected the planet at various times.

Also as a reminder - the Vaccine does not stop you from being able to spread the Virus, so I really wish they would stop with that insinuation.

Some already have got the virus and passed it on ... without actually being affected by it. With those that have been given the vaccines ... the same result is expected. I haven't heard of anybody without already having serious medical issues ... being killed by the virus after taking the vaccines. Have you ... ??

The onus is being placed on business owners to decide who enters their premises. Be it staff ... or customers. Any law changes in this regard is to give those businesses the legal power to do this. Government agencies will probably be first to adhere to the "No jab, no entry" policy. Those on a Benefit might find dealing with their local welfare agency ... even more difficult without having had the jabs ...

[F5 Dave]

Average age of those in hospital has come down quite somewhat. I read it was 45 on Monday stuff article but apparently that was revised Tuesday to 38 (source a mate heard it on the radio so cant confirm lower number). But geez .

[pete376403]

Average age of those in hospital has come down quite somewhat. I read it was 45 on Monday stuff article but apparently that was revised Tuesday to 38 (source a mate heard it on the radio so cant confirm lower number). But geez .

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-z...lummeting.html

[pete376403]

And, in other news, https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/hea...n-christchurch

Welcome to the rest of NZ, South Island

[TheDemonLord]

Nope. There are some anti-vax people that try to claim to be anti-mandate, but the reality is that they believe some anti-science nonsense and because of it they don't want to get vaccinated.

So, let me stop you right there. I've stated in another thread that I, myself, am Vaccinated. I am also completely opposed to any Mandates.
Ben Shapiro (prominent Right-wing talking head) also is fully vaccinated and also against Mandates.

Immediately your narrative is wrong.

You can be opposed to Mandates, whilst being pro-vaccine (a position which I have routinely upheld, not just in regards to the Covid Vaccine, but others as well)

There is no apartheid and every single person in NZ is free to choose to not get vaccinated.

Just like everyone is free to renounce their Jewish Faith

There is, as always, consequences to the choices people make and those consequences might include needing to find a different job or not being able to go to a concert

"If you choose not to pay us the protection money, there might be consequences, you might need to find a different Job"

but that is fine, for the health of the entire society we need to have some rules to protect the majority from the selfish.

Thank you kindly for this statement - Why?

Do you believe the Vaccine doesn't work? After-all, if the Majority are Vaccinated - what Protection do they need? They already have protection (by your own argument), so why the need for Tyranny?

And let us remember that this is a Virus with a 98% survival rate. When you filter out old people (who also die from things like the Flu every year) and people with pre-existing medical conditions (see the comment about the Flu also) - that survival rate rises to over 99%

So I'll ask - WHY do the Majority (who are vaccinated) need protection?

To make the argument you are trying, you either have to deny the science or deny reality.

This natural rights of the individual BS sounds like double speak for "I want to be selfish and would rather let people die than accept current medical science".

It's only the philosophical underpinning upon which all of your human rights are based.
It's only the philosophical argument that ended practices such as Slavery and Torture.
It's only the Bulwark that stood opposed to the biggest genocides of the 20th Century.

There are plenty of rules in society that mean that people are denied the freedom to do certain things, no society in the world exists with absolute freedom for people to do anything they want to.

Sure, and most of those are derived from an individual's Natural Rights. Often expressed as 'your right to swing your fists in public ends where my nose begins'.

That said, yes we do have laws - but the vast majority are prescriptive 'You cannot do XYZ' as opposed to proscriptive 'You must do XYZ' and therein lies the difference.

The fact is that people being vaccinated or not does affect other people, it isn't JUST about the person being vaccinated.

That is the wrong way to frame it. You as the individual are free to vaccinate yourself (or not) to protect yourself (or not). You cannot control the actions of other people, you can only control your own actions.

[TheDemonLord]

Perhaps TDL should self isolate with a lock on the outside and smear himself with covid and have a long drawn out discussion with a virus about his rights as an individual.

Be sure to be firm with it. Its probably a dirty left leaning virus and needs to be put to rights with strong arguments about your self worth and importance.

We did something similar, on the 6th of June, 1944 - and the World was a better place for it.

Freedom has a price and so does Tyranny.

Benjamin Franklin was right when he said "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

If tomorrow, I would ride a Motorbike and die a horrible death, I would have done so freely making the choices that lead to that outcome. Would you like it if some moral Busybody banned you from riding your bike because you might Die?

I'd much rather pay the price and the consequences of MY freely made choices, than pay the price and the consequences for YOUR choices.

[TheDemonLord]

I'm fully vaxed, but thanks for the suggestion.
I've never said the vaccine stops a person from being able to spread the virus, BUT: a vaccinated person is MUCH less likely to contract and spread the virus than a non-vaccinated person.

Erm, the science is still out on that - last I read if you are double vaxxed, you still have a greater than 50% chance of being a carrier and passing it on - with that rising to nearly 70% after 3 months of the second dose.

In contrast, catching Covid and recovering gives a greater than 80% resistance to transmitting the Virus.

Unfortunately the death rate is very low, so unvaccinated people are more likely to contract the virus, pass on the virus, get sick and need hospital treatment and then keep on living and being selfish idiots.

If the Death Rate is low, what are you worried about?

The same could be (and is...) said of Obesity, Motorcycling, Smoking, Drinking Alcohol etc. etc. Yet, we are happy to pay our taxes to treat those people - so why the hatred?

[R650R]

I see chch is facing the “threat” of a snap lockdown over a handful of cases at a time when they been raving about how good si vax rate is....

Let’s think for a minute about airborne transmission.... how much virus particles does it take to infect another person?
Does anyone know?
Does the govt know?
How fast does your immune system work, either natural or immunised, how fast do those immune cells eat/destroy the virus?
Given how long the body takes to deal with most normal Illnesses id hazard a guess it’s not that fast....
Given all this fancy genomic tracking of who got infected where, surely by now the govt would have HARD evidence to show the UNvaccinayed spread the virus. Yes there are more of them in hospital but who did they catch it from?
That’s all they need to do is show the data instead of threatening people’s freedoms.
Remember we were told the virus can live on a petrol pump handle (despite all those benzene fumes) and last time I checked you can’t vaccine a petrol pump.

[R650R]

Erm, the science is still out on that - last I read if you are double vaxxed, you still have a greater than 50% chance of being a carrier and passing it on - with that rising to nearly 70% after 3 months of the second dose.

In contrast, catching Covid and recovering gives a greater than 80% resistance to transmitting the Virus.



If the Death Rate is low, what are you worried about?

The same could be (and is...) said of Obesity, Motorcycling, Smoking, Drinking Alcohol etc. etc. Yet, we are happy to pay our taxes to treat those people - so why the hatred?

Yep sadly 8 people dead on the weekend, the virus will be very jealous of the laws of physics.

The same people that would sneer at a person mask less (with exemption) in shop think nothing of jumping in car with kids at heading off on holiday.... while you KNOW there will be fatigued people coming the other way doing same nagging wife/kids/life worries etc distracting them.
Never mind than some of them will be needlessly be driving overweight utes giving them an unfair kinetic advantage in collision.....
Oh now there’s a thread topic E=MV2.... speed kills but what about the mass part of the equation seems it only matters once it’s above 48,000 kg.... why don’t we demonise car loads of fat people they have compromised their cars stopping distance.....

[pritch]

Last night I was talking to a Ngapuhi kaumatua while waiting for a Zoom meeting to commence. He was telling me that the older people in the north are getting vaccinated, but those in their 30s are more reluctant.

When COVID first appeared it was quickly apparent that it mainly affected the elderly. Many seem to think this is still the csae. The Delta version is less fussy, it affects younger people and children. Thousands of children have died in the US. As has been pointed out on KB the average age of those currently hospitalised here is 45. Hardly geriatrics.

Had an unusual experience last night, I agreed with Honi Harawira. He is anti the freedumb protestors heading north. So was my Ngapuhi friend, so am I. Fuckem.

[MarkH]

So, let me stop you right there. I've stated in another thread that I, myself, am Vaccinated. I am also completely opposed to any Mandates.
Ben Shapiro (prominent Right-wing talking head) also is fully vaccinated and also against Mandates.

Immediately your narrative is wrong.

You can be opposed to Mandates, whilst being pro-vaccine (a position which I have routinely upheld, not just in regards to the Covid Vaccine, but others as well)

OK, maybe not every single last person that opposes mandates is anti-vax, just the overwhelming majority of them.
Ben Shapiro is a huge cunt for many other reasons, just as well he isn't also an anti-vaxer.

Do you believe the Vaccine doesn't work? After-all, if the Majority are Vaccinated - what Protection do they need? They already have protection (by your own argument), so why the need for Tyranny?

And let us remember that this is a Virus with a 98% survival rate. When you filter out old people (who also die from things like the Flu every year) and people with pre-existing medical conditions (see the comment about the Flu also) - that survival rate rises to over 99%

So I'll ask - WHY do the Majority (who are vaccinated) need protection?

To make the argument you are trying, you either have to deny the science or deny reality.

Oh, dear, so much lack of understanding . . .

There are so many ways that unvaccinated people are putting the vaccinated at risk. Vaccines do work, but most are not 100% effective - some people will get sick, some will need ICU and some will even die, despite being vaccinated. Then there are the people that cannot be vaccinated and the people that are immuno-compromised. There is a thing called 'herd immunity', if you understood what that is then you would most likely be able to understand the reason why all of society benefits from having everyone that can be vaccinated, doing so. Let's not forget the people that have medical events or are hurt in accident or need to get tumours checked - in some countries those people have died due to overwhelmed health services due to huge numbers of Covid cases. The reality is that high numbers of unvaccinated people can be a direct cause of health systems being overwhelmed, leading to suffering and deaths from other unrelated things. I consider the anti-vaxxers to be selfish cunts because their decision to not vaccinate puts the lives of other people at risk, but they care more about their mis-informed ideas than the lives of others.

Whenever I come across reasoning like the bit quoted it is very helpful, it tells me that the person does not understand the topic and is arguing from a position of ignorance. Not understanding how a vaccine works, not understanding the concept of herd immunity, not understanding the benefits of mass vaccination, etc. This is a fairly common thing with anti-vaxxers and science deniers, so many fallacious arguments of various types with the resulting holes in their reasoning that are big enough to drive a bus through. When someone says "if you are vaccinated than why do you care if anyone else if vaccinated" I read that as "I don't understand the science and really don't know what I'm talking about".

Erm, the science is still out on that - last I read if you are double vaxxed, you still have a greater than 50% chance of being a carrier and passing it on - with that rising to nearly 70% after 3 months of the second dose.

In contrast, catching Covid and recovering gives a greater than 80% resistance to transmitting the Virus.

Well, that's different to the numbers I've read. I don't even understand what the hell it is supposed to mean when you say "if you are double vaxxed, you still have a greater than 50% chance of being a carrier and passing it on" - in what circumstances are you at greater than 50% chance of being a carrier? The way that is phrased makes me think it is something posted on an anti-vax website by a barely literate retard.

If the Death Rate is low, what are you worried about?

There is a lot more to consider than just the death rate. There is the hospitalisation rate, which is much higher than the death rate. Then there is the possibility of 'long Covid' which sounds like a right cunt of a thing. Perhaps the most scary is the potential for long term (possibly life-long) organ damage (heart, lungs, kidneys, brain, gonads, etc) which scientists have found cases of, even in people that only ever had mild Covid symptoms.

Personally, I'm not so worried about getting Covid now that I'm vaccinated. I'm worried about the lockdown measures crippling our society and the economy. I'm worried about the health system being overwhelmed and that leading to many more deaths. I'm worried about vulnerable people dying in part due to the decisions of the selfish people. I'm worried about families and friends kept apart by closed borders (international borders and the Auckland border). All these measures to limit the spread of the virus are needed largely because of the unvaccinated people.

I'm not in favour of making anyone get the vaccine if they don't want to, but I am in favour of incentivising people to do the right thing. I also believe that letting a bartender serve hundreds of people on a busy Friday night, without requiring that person to be vaccinated, would be borderline criminal. For the sake of protecting others there are many jobs that absolutely should be restricted to only vaccinated people. Similarly there are mass gatherings that could easily be super spreader events if not limited to only vaccinated people, it seems to me that it would be better to limit those gatherings to only vaccinated people than to outright cancel them. For example we have already had the 2020 Cold Kiwi and the 2021 Cold Kiwi cancelled, I'd rather be able to attend the Cold Kiwi while vaccinated than to have it cancelled again.

There have been cases cropping up where there are workers that don't want to get vaccinated and there are other workers that don't want to work with unvaccinated people. You can say that the first group have rights, but don't the other group have rights too?
I've visited a workplace that had a sign asking people that had cold/flu/other symptoms to not enter because a worker there was undergoing chemotherapy, I wonder how a workplace in that situation would feel about unvaccinated workers/visitors during a pandemic?

[pete376403]

So, let me stop you right there. I've stated in another thread that I, myself, am Vaccinated. I am also completely opposed to any Mandates.
Ben Shapiro (prominent Right-wing talking head) also is fully vaccinated and also against Mandates.


That said, yes we do have laws - but the vast majority are prescriptive 'You cannot do XYZ' as opposed to proscriptive 'You must do XYZ' and therein lies the difference.

You must drive on the left. How would you feel about someone expressing their personal liberties to drive anywhere they like on the road if they were to take you out? Many laws exist for the protection of everyone