Anorak
Ya wasting your time anytime something happens he doesn't like he cries communism or nazi or undemocratic. or all three.Originally Posted by pete376403
He goes on with the rights of individuals and companies to stay or do what they like..... unless of course its something he doesn't like , like ban trump from twitter etc etc etc. then he will claim censorship etc etc.
you would have to wonder if NZ was so bad why he doesn't go back to England under Boris the bestest ever tory.
Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken
The Majestic Metal Wizard
Yes, isn't it funny how Undemocratic, Communist and Fascist frequently share the same bed...
I do - and in case you've forgotten, Free Speech is one of those rights.
As for Twitter et al, There are two issues at play - one is the unequal application of the rules, I mean, Donald Trump was yeeted from the platform, but the Taliban still had Twitter accounts...
The second is Quasi public spaces, whereby the Supreme Court has ruled that if a privately owned space has all the functionality of a Public space, then the protection of the 1st Amendment applies:
Now, whether or not you believe Twitter and social media at large to be covered by that is up to your interpretation, however the key thing here is 'opens up his property for use by the public in general' - which to me definitely describes Facebook, Youtube, Twitter - since for all three, an account is not required to view and there is no fee to join."the more an owner, for his advantage, opens up his property for use by the public in general, the more do his rights become circumscribed by the statutory and constitutional rights of those who use it. The Court continued, Whether a corporation or a municipality owns or possesses the town[,] the public in either case has an identical interest in the functioning of the community in such manner that the channels of communication remain free."
Further to that, the 1st Amendment was written to protect anywhere that political speech was taking place in the public domain - which definitely describes Twitter.
And you'll also note (because you're an idiot with a short memory) that Trump was prohibited, by the Federal Court - from blocking people on his twitter account under the auspices of the First Amendment - So, which is it? Is it private property when you want to ban Trump, but a public space when you want to hurl abuse at Trump?
I like Boris - or at least, I liked pre-Covid Boris, there's many many many things I'm not happy with the UK Tory Government on. Like not repealing a whole load of Tony Blair's crap, not reigning in the BBC, Allowing the Migrant Crisis to continue etc.
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
No8 Wire Extraordinaire
So 8 pages in, and I've just realised that I'd been misreading the title of this thread. My minds eye version I saw had an 'it in the' that just wasn't there.
Makes my first post less funny,:
[QUOTE=F5 Dave;1131193736]So is there a link to the original premise of this thread?
Asking for a friend.[/QUOTE
Don't you look at my accountant.
He's the only one I've got.
The Majestic Metal Wizard
If it's any consolation - I still laughed...So 8 pages in, and I've just realised that I'd been misreading the title of this thread. My minds eye version I saw had an 'it in the' that just wasn't there.
Makes my first post less funny,
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
Smarty pants... since ages ago
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here ... but enlighten me ...
Until they get caught/charged/fined.
If you really support them ... Will you contribute to help pay their fines ??
I'd say all of the above.
Law and Legislation cannot always be ignored for whatever reason you choose give. If the infection rate and hospitalization rates increase ... you can expect the fines to be commonplace. And increased.
Morality is a seldom heard reason for breaking the law. I hadn't realized you were so virtuous ...
$5.00 if you change your mind ...
ALL citizens include those that are vaccinated. And have the (Natural ??) Right to NOT have their safety of health put at risk ... by those that are NOT vaccinated. I believe THAT is a "Natural Right" THEY have.
Police might not act unless a complaint is made. They are busy people you know.
When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...
Kruger-Dunning Parts n Service
And to take that further, much of the atrocity and death was enabled caused by private enterprise. Hitler took the rap but many of the death star were from poor work conditions at camps owned by corporations with links to American financiers in some cases. And many of the sunsets of the IG Farben group of companies are major players today that no one bats an eyelid about at their history....
Law and order was maintained in the camps by selecting the worst known criminals in camps and giving them priviledges to do the deeds to keep inmates under control. Ironically called sommer commando....
Anyhow a lot of that sounds awfully familiar to things in today s society.....
Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket - Eric Hoffer
The Majestic Metal Wizard
What do you call it when the state forces you to work?
By ensuring that they receive the maximum amount of my Patronage possible and encouraging others to do the same.
Glad you agree, because it makes the next point I'm about to make easier:
Not true, Civil Disobedience has long been a part of the tools of Protest in the Western world. Especially when a Law violates some of the principles that have guided our society.Law and Legislation cannot always be ignored for whatever reason you choose give. If the infection rate and hospitalization rates increase ... you can expect the fines to be commonplace. And increased.
Morality is a seldom heard reason for breaking the law. I hadn't realized you were so virtuous ...
I think we need a few more zeros after the first positive integer and before the decimal point$5.00 if you change your mind ...
No. They Don't. This is a very key philosophical point to understand and it happens to underpin all of our freedoms.
Simply put - you cannot control other people, if you are concerned about your health being put at risk, the Liberal system allows you to take precautions to protect yourself - but it does not allow you to use your fears to infringe on the rights of others.
Here's a little contrived scenario to highlight the point:
If you are concerned about getting robbed when you go out at night, the Liberal system says you can do some of the following:
- Choose not to go out
- Choose to avoid high risk areas
- Choose to go with friends
- Choose to carry a self-defence tool
- Choose not to carry any valuables etc.
All of which are decisions you make by yourself, for yourself.
However, if you were to demand that in order for you to go safely out at night, that all Men between the ages of 15 and 35 have to be locked up (the biggest demographic that commits crime) - that would be wholly illiberal. Because it is a Decision that you are making for other people.
That's effectively the end-result of what you are advocating for, ever increasing amounts of tyranny and state control in the name of Safety - You don't have a right to be Safe, you have a right to be Free. They are fundamentally not the same.
And yet when there is a political Goal, suddenly they find time, resources, money and man-power....
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
No8 Wire Extraordinaire
Read: the holocaust was bad management practices? You do really have no bounds to your misinformation.
Expecting flat earth next.
And conditions on the death star was probably more Darth Vader's bag, we can give you that.
Don't you look at my accountant.
He's the only one I've got.
Smarty pants... since ages ago
It's called employment. Apparently going out of fashion in some places.
Great. I bet you run out of money before they do.
I'm waiting to see what your point is ...
Breaking the law is not always successful. Sometimes it backfires ... and all your promised support vanishes. What do the do then ... ???
Nah ... you'd be overpaid at $5.00
So ... It's ok for business owners to allow those illegally entering their business, and potentially endangering the health of their (legal) customers, and you say they have to because it's not their right to stop them entering their business .. ??
The Covid Pass is law. The business's can use that law to protect themselves.
And they'll win the next election too.
All any opposition seem to do is score an own goal.
Still waiting for your point .... just saying ...
When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...
Anorak
Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken
The Majestic Metal Wizard
And here we have the Strawman, right on time and right on cue.
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
The Majestic Metal Wizard
Read again what I said, There's a word there that you are skipping: "Forces". If you are Forced to work, is it employment?
Well, so far that's not happened....
No one ever said doing what is morally right was easy.
In fact, the very nature of it being difficult to do is why it's considered a Virtue.
The Market would tend to disagree...
Is it okay to stop Muslims from entering your Business, because they might potentially endanger the health of your customers, simply on the basis of their deeply held Faith?
I'd say that would fall under Discrimination and would be wrong. It's wrong to do it at an interpersonal level and it is VERY wrong when done at a legislative and Governmental level.
Yeah, Laws =/= Moral. Apartheid was Law, so was Slavery - does this mean that both of these were just and Moral because they were legal?
Well, so far the New National guy has made some good steps regarding Collins, so we'll see, Baby-steps. Current polling shows ACT to be on the rise and the combination of National/ACT has a greater percentage than Labour/Greens.
When you omit certain words from what was said, then say you don't see the point....
Tsk tsk.
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
Smarty pants... since ages ago
Poverty and greed forces me to work. It provides a much better income than a benefit. It's worked (excuse the pun) for me so far ...
On a benefit with a heap of kids (not necessarily all yours) should provide a handy income ...
I think we might agree that your idea of what morals should be held ... and what views should be held as being "Morally right" ... might differ from mine ...
Breaking any law should hardly be considered virtuous. Or difficult to do. If it is difficult for you ... you're doing it wrong ...
If it was a slave market. Your owner might get $10 ... Dog food is expensive ...
I would have more faith (excuse the pun) in them than you. Simply because if they had a vaccine pass ... they would be perfectly ENTITLED to be in my business. And I personally know a large number of Muslims in this country and overseas. I'd trust them more than I would you ...
Where have I discriminated ... ??
Apartheid and slavery are both frowned on in Law (now) in this country. As I recall ... The Maori kept slaves (and ate a few) in past times in THIS country ... and no laws (or their morals apparently) seemed to prevent it at that time. Times have changed I guess ... But I guess some still might need reminding ...
Good steps are ok ... but big steps in big shoes ... that he has to fill first. And are needed FIRST. New Zealand FIRST maybe ...
Nothing was omitted that I believed was relevant to our discussion ...
Still waiting for your point ...
When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...
The Majestic Metal Wizard
Right. Self Interest is your reason to work. You work because you want to enjoy a certain level of lifestyle. You don't work because the Government forces you to.Poverty and greed forces me to work. It provides a much better income than a benefit. It's worked (excuse the pun) for me so far ...
Maybe, maybe not - Most of mine stem from the Locke view of Natural (or God Given Rights). There's a certain amount of extrapolation required for some (such as Copyright Law) but as a general rule, anything that traces it's lineage to those principles I believe to be good and Moral.I think we might agree that your idea of what morals should be held ... and what views should be held as being "Morally right" ... might differ from mine ...
I'd be interested to know what umbrage you take with that...
Do we not revere Ghandi? Or what about Schindler? Mandela? Rosa Parks? When the law that is being broken is unjust, then civil disobedience IS Virtuous. The key part being Civil.Breaking any law should hardly be considered virtuous. Or difficult to do. If it is difficult for you ... you're doing it wrong ...
Well, the Free Market is what pays my salary, and it's a bit more than $10. So either I'm extremely good at convincing people (and given the amount of discussion where I take the opposing view here, I think we can dispense with that theoryIf it was a slave market. Your owner might get $10 ... Dog food is expensive ...) or I've got some rather valuable skills.
That's dodging the question, because just like COVID someone could point to an objective threat posed by them because of their Beliefs and they could do so using the exact same reasoning used to justify the Vaccine Pass.
No doubt you agree that such a discrimination is wrong - but if you accept the framing of the argument for the Vaccine pass, you cannot do so on the same logical grounds.
That's circular logic, considering the question being posed
I'm sure you do and I'm sure they are all lovely.And I personally know a large number of Muslims in this country and overseas. I'd trust them more than I would you ...
Would you deny someone access to your business based on their personal belief?Where have I discriminated ... ??
This is what it comes down to: If the answer is No, then you have to extend that to people who are both Anti-Vaxx or people who simply believe that Vaccine Passports are wrong.
If the answer is Yes, then you couldn't complain when someone using that same logic turns around and says 'Get out of my shop, we don't serve your kind in here'
Sure, Slavery was a human universal, until the British stopped it. They stopped it based on the same principles that I oppose Vaccine Passports. The fact that we've legalized discrimination in this country shows that times haven't changed all that much...Apartheid and slavery are both frowned on in Law (now) in this country. As I recall ... The Maori kept slaves (and ate a few) in past times in THIS country ... and no laws (or their morals apparently) seemed to prevent it at that time. Times have changed I guess ... But I guess some still might need reminding ...
One claimed existential threat, one socialist dictator and people suddenly forget all about others Rights and Freedoms and think the Crocadile won't eat them...
They are dead. The siding with Jacinda killed them and the fact they betrayed their Voterbase on a number of key issues has guaranteed they will never be resurrected.Good steps are ok ... but big steps in big shoes ... that he has to fill first. And are needed FIRST. New Zealand FIRST maybe ...
Okay then -Nothing was omitted that I believed was relevant to our discussion ...
Still waiting for your point ...
Do you disagree with the principle of Bodily Autonomy?
Do you think that someone other than you has the right to demand you do something with your body that you don't want to do?
Do you think that it is right to treat people differently based on a perceived threat that their personal views might entail?
I believe bodily autonomy to be one of the highest principles, I don't think that anyone should be able to make anyone else put something in their body that they have not consented to and I think any discrimination - no matter how well intentioned or what justification is given, is wrong.
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
Forum whore
The wife says yes.
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