The Robert Taylor suspension thread

[riffer]

Im not even a rider, but could probably lap faster than the guy on the pink SV....

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahaha.....poor frosty!!!

You guys are so infracted...

Enough of this bollocks. Talk more suspension.

[johnsv650]

how much travel would be correct amount of travel on front forks, just got emulator and springs done, rider liked the front end (thanks robert) but if we wanted full travel (what do we do to adjust) more oil or less, or what, hope this helps others with normal forks or is about 80% travel about right.

[Robert Taylor]

how much travel would be correct amount of travel on front forks, just got emulator and springs done, rider liked the front end (thanks robert) but if we wanted full travel (what do we do to adjust) more oil or less, or what, hope this helps others with normal forks or is about 80% travel about right.

At this time of year there is little grip to be had as there is little temperature and therefore little tyre temp. Also I guess the rider is still getting used to the new feel of the bike. For all of these reasons it means you cannot go in as deep under brakes as you would in the summer months, that means less weight carried forward under brakes to place more force onto those forks. Also, if you play with increasing rear ride height, lowering front ride height and lengthening wheelbase that displaces more weight onto the front end. Suspension tuning is full of endless variables and combinations!

Reducing the oil level by approximately 10mm would be a good first step. What you are actually doing is reducing the amount of progressivity of the secondary air spring effect. If reducing it by10mm is not enough go perhaps another 6 -8mm. Another way would be to go the whole 18mm in one step and if that works out to be a little too far simply syringe in 5cc of oil into each leg, it is easier to add oil rather than take it away! You should be able to source veterinary syringes from a vet, providing you can prove that you are not a drug user.

Failing that I have them in stock plus a nice line of hyperdermic needles! ( used to inject nitrogen into shocks through a self sealing membrane)

Bear in mind that if you get the oil level dialed it will not neccessarily be correct for another track and also the available grip to be had. This is one of the variables that suspension tuners play with all the time.

If there is more travel available to be had you should certainly be wanting to liberate it. What you should do to establish where fully bottomed is:

Suspend the front end off the ground, remove wheel and mudguard / any cross fork bracing.

Remove the fork spring out of one fork and reinstall the top cap.

Apply a cable tie to the chrome leg on that fork and mechanically bottom the fork by hand.

Where the cable tie ends up is full travel, your reference point.

[k14]

Is decreasing the preload able to achieve the same effect? Or should preload be set once and never touched again?

[F5 Dave]

Ok this is where I sound like a bit of a dingle-dangler ‘cause I can’t remember much of the details to make myself properly understood I’m sure but:
What was your opinion of the whole idea of using longer top out springs to affect the rebound near top of stroke?

There had been an article in ADB some while back where mr Hay over in Auss had been manufacturing longer springs specially treated (to counter the fact that they were past normal design parameters for a spring to not sack out when at steep angle with few coils).

This in the dirt world was supposed to be a new direction forward, I’m not sure if it took?

To appease those who will grizzle as this is largely a road based community a few Supersport teams were reputedly trialling this approach back in '00 but with limited appeal. As told 3rd hand. To some extent the early R1 was slightly oddly set up as such but perhaps with different goals in mind of road holding on bumpy roads, somewhat unconvincingly.

[HDTboy]

Perhaps we could have a road, race, and offroad thread?

[imdying]

I think we're doing well to get the amount of time RT is already investing in us

[Robert Taylor]

Is decreasing the preload able to achieve the same effect? Or should preload be set once and never touched again?

If the oil level is effectively too high it causes a semi hydraulic effect. If you reduce preload the front will ride lower in its stroke and get to the bottom of its stroke earlier. So no, it is not really a fix.

But it is all about combination, compromises and rider feel. And the perfect setup on one track can feel very average on another. Getting your spring sag and clickers set up by someone with external set up knowledge patently does not give you the perfect setting for all tracks / conditions. That is exactly why I maintain that raising the level of competitors set up knowledge is a better course of action. So setting choices can be more informed and questions more precise of those who can assist further. The very best riders are also those who are very prepared to learn chassis set up skills.

There are set up numbers for static and rider sag correlation, these are a guideline only and should not be regarded as absolute gospel. If you run numbers that are quite different and it reflects in better lap times then all well and good!

For example when we were setting up TTX36 rear on Sam Smiths R6 we were changing rear springs and setting up the rider sag only without even bothering to measure resultant free sag. The stopwatch was the absolute judge.

So......

Do we provide enough information so riders and their mechanics can at least do the set up basics, and then feel free to ask us better informed set up questions as required?

Or do we keep everyone totally in the dark?

Its fair that there needs to be some sort of charge for a little labour intensive set up work but I personally wouldnt feel happy charging a load of money for quickly twisting a few clickers, no matter the result. Balanced against that, there is a cost in getting to meetings, accomodation, meals and incidentals. Especially island to island! But if you are not totally on top of your game with intimate set up knowledge that will give a result, is a charge justified?

Id like everyones thoughts on where ''kiwi goodwill'' begins and ends??????

[HDTboy]

Personally from what I've seen, you offer exceptional aftersales service. I'm under the impression that most of what I have seen is built into the price you're selling the gear at. That makes your aftersales service very inexpensive.

I'm all for rider and team education, so long as people aren't trying to diagnose problems and then tell you (Robert) what is happening. If someone is at the point where they need to come to you, then they need to tell you the symptoms, and not how to fix the problem.

There is an old saying
We charge $40/hr
If you watch, it is $60/hr
If you help, it is $80/hr
If we are fixing your mistakes, it is $120/hr

[Robert Taylor]

Ok this is where I sound like a bit of a dingle-dangler ‘cause I can’t remember much of the details to make myself properly understood I’m sure but:
What was your opinion of the whole idea of using longer top out springs to affect the rebound near top of stroke?

There had been an article in ADB some while back where mr Hay over in Auss had been manufacturing longer springs specially treated (to counter the fact that they were past normal design parameters for a spring to not sack out when at steep angle with few coils).

This in the dirt world was supposed to be a new direction forward, I’m not sure if it took?

To appease those who will grizzle as this is largely a road based community a few Supersport teams were reputedly trialling this approach back in '00 but with limited appeal. As told 3rd hand. To some extent the early R1 was slightly oddly set up as such but perhaps with different goals in mind of road holding on bumpy roads, somewhat unconvincingly.

Im not so sure on the dirt side with what Terry Hay was doing. He did make it sound as if he ''invented'' the concept but anyone who has pulled apart late 70s / early 80s RM forks will have evidenced very very long top out springs. Some people like what Hay has done, many dont and it hasnt taken the dirt bike world by storm.

In road racing we messed with top out springs right through the season in Bugdens, Shirriffs and Smiths bikes. One of the main preoccupations was to minimise especially the big bikes popping wheelies so readily, the object being to keep the front tyre as firmly planted as possible! There are other things that happen, the internal topout spring acts against the main spring, effectively lessening its rate, so it gives a little more compliance at the first stages of travel. Cartridges also effectively are subject to a little cavitation on ''stretch stroke'' so the top out spring helps to arrest the final part of re-extension so it doesnt violently top out. Dynamic control of the chassis geometry is also affected, some bikes need assistance in this respect

We had 20mm travel top out springs of varying rates and 40mm travel, also in varying rates. What we settled on has now been adopted by Ohlins in production.

Back to your dirt bikes perhaps one argument in favour of not using over long top out springs is that you want the bike to be able to responsively pop throttle induced wheelies to avoid nasty bumps, a common mx riding technique. Its all about the overall combination in the end event, there are many ways of skinning the cat. No one is right and no-one is wrong.

In our road racing cartridges we are currently using the longest catalogued springs, the rate in harmony with the selected main spring rate. Design / function may change in the future that dictates the need to use shorter top out springs. This sort of stuff goes round in circles!

[limbimtimwim]

Sharing of information improves society, the economy and competition.

I wrote a spiel about free software, but realized there was an better parallel.

If some choose not to share information, others will not share with them. Would the pure sciences like chemistry and physics be anywhere near where they are today if there was not open discussion and publication of work?

Surely the same goes for suspension setup.

[Robert Taylor]

Personally from what I've seen, you offer exceptional aftersales service. I'm under the impression that most of what I have seen is built into the price you're selling the gear at. That makes your aftersales service very inexpensive.

I'm all for rider and team education, so long as people aren't trying to diagnose problems and then tell you (Robert) what is happening. If someone is at the point where they need to come to you, then they need to tell you the symptoms, and not how to fix the problem.

There is an old saying
We charge $40/hr
If you watch, it is $60/hr
If you help, it is $80/hr
If we are fixing your mistakes, it is $120/hr

Thanks Gav,

Its probably a very debatable point that I have enough margin in the product, but being present at meetings and offering the service that I do always results in sales of product and service / repair work. This last weekend at Manfield was no exception. I guess I can justify this as advertising, feet on the ground style.

I havent been immune though from devious accusations ( and they know who they are ) to the effect ''hes only interested in helping the top riders'' Granted I spend a lot of time with the top guys but if anyone at all comes to me asking questions or wants a little basic set up help I am almost always able to oblige, even if it takes me a while to get to them.

Note that I have offered through this site suspension set up schools, just have to nail venue and appropriate date. I merely wish only to recover costs. If this helps to foster the sport further then it helps EVERYBODY.

My personal approach is to try and teach the rider why I am making the changes, not to keep them in the dark, adjust a few things and say ''there you go, some money please'' It matters not what the brand of bike or suspension is.

I started fettling with road race suspension back in 97 ( mx stuff preceding that ) and have learnt a hell of a lot. But I had no-one to lean on except distanced replies from Stockholm, not as effective as being on the spot. Perhaps I am too ethical, but I am averse about people paying for ''short sharp adjustments ''. An expert I would interpret as someone really on top of his game with a very deep understanding of his specialist product, not only externally, but INTERNALLY, and possessing all the appropriate brand dedicated equipment and formal factory approved training. Candidly, I am only just starting to feel on top of it, but then reality can often deal blows that bring you down to earth!

PARASITES...those that parrallell import, trading off the name and leaching into the fact it is you that has done the hard yards and spent the advertising dollars etc. Much less depth of understanding of the product. Perhaps there is a very strong argument that with respect to imports there is too little regulation in this country. Joe Bloggs can import certain numbers of product, piggybacking off other peoples promotion, then grab the money and run with little or no backup.

Infrastructure and operating costs are not inconsiderable for committed distributors who properly and fully back up their product.

For nearly 2 decades I worked with a character who had the demeanour of Saddam Hussein, his mood swings were instant and unpredictable. That prepped me to put up with those in this world with attitude disorders and the predisposal to throw their toys out of their cots with little warning. Perhaps I should have been paid danger money.....No one should have to put up with this and if the world at large was less tolerant of such personalities we'd be a better place!

Gav, your last paragraph is pertinent. I dont mind how anyone presents a set up issue to be solved, as long as it is reasoned and free of ego / mind games. Heck, you can learn new things off a very wide cross section of people. Everyone looks at things from different angles.

[Pussy]

Well, Robert, I for one am very appreciative of the work/advice/backup/research etc you have done for me. And my only riding fame is holding a lap record at Manfeild..... slowest lap ever on one of Brian Bernard's superbikes. I'm certain I'm speaking for Gassit Girl as well... you have done two very nice set ups on her previous SV650s. I guess it goes to show you are happy enough to look after Joe Average too.

[FROSTY:Me]

Robert --Gwan take the piss.
YOU earned the right at Pearoa in 06 when you grabbed two spanners and came running to help me set up my rear Ohlins.
You earned my respect at Ruapuna when you again offered your assistance.
Im genuinely sorry I diddn't reward your efforts with better results.
Some people talk the talk --You my freind walk the walk.

[Robert Taylor]

Robert --Gwan take the piss.
YOU earned the right at Pearoa in 06 when you grabbed two spanners and came running to help me set up my rear Ohlins.
You earned my respect at Ruapuna when you again offered your assistance.
Im genuinely sorry I diddn't reward your efforts with better results.
Some people talk the talk --You my freind walk the walk.

Frosty, you probably would be faster than me! Ill stay with springs, clickers and shims.