Workplace urine test

[TLMAN]

I don't have to pass a urine test; nor AIUI do most of the working population. I assume the reason someone in the timber industry does is for safety reasons. There are no special safety issues with either sitting on the couch or looking for work.

Sure, that's a problem. But that's different from cutting off their money, and therefore their ability to live.

Their ability to live should come form working and holding down a stable job not getting cushy with a dole check as a lifestyle choice.

[rwh]

I think they should start giving out vouchers instead of hard cash, for supermarkets and the warehouse etc, and they should pay the rent money straight to the landllord or housing nz.

Warehouse vouchers? I can imagine the competition having a bit of a fit at that idea (ok there's the 'etc', but I assume you still mean 'cheap') ...

Sure the Warehouse has some good deals, but there's also times you'd be better off spending a little more somewhere else - once - to avoid spending a little repeatedly. See many of Robert Taylor's posts, that people here mostly seem to agree with ...

I'm not sure I'd find a decent suit to go job hunting in at one of those cheap shops, either.

Richard

[imdying]

Very fair comment. I don't see why we need the damn dole anyway for able bodied people.

When I finished my degree, I was on the dole for two weeks before I found a job... I was pretty financially drained by that stage, so it kept me going for the brief time I need it.

[TLMAN]

Warehouse vouchers? I can imagine the competition having a bit of a fit at that idea (ok there's the 'etc', but I assume you still mean 'cheap') ...

Sure the Warehouse has some good deals, but there's also times you'd be better off spending a little more somewhere else - once - to avoid spending a little repeatedly. See many of Robert Taylor's posts, that people here mostly seem to agree with ...

I'm not sure I'd find a decent suit to go job hunting in at one of those cheap shops, either.

Richard

Did you miss the point?

What the discussion is about is that many people on the dole spend their money on drugs piss and smokes instead of providing the fundamentals for themselves and their children.
They cant be trusted to make the right choice with their money so the choice should be taken from them and they will be forced to spend their dole allowance on the correct things through use of vouchers that can be spent at pre determined stores like supermarkets and department stores like the warehouse etc etc.

And whats this "See many of Robert Taylor's posts, that people here mostly seem to agree with ..." do you speak for all the people here

[MSTRS:Me]

...
Sure, that's a problem. But that's different from cutting off their money, ...

...

Whose money??

[ManDownUnder]

Whose money??

oooOOOooo harsh words.... hard to fault though.

Yes. Vouchers for food and drink, power and water. Everyone needs the essentials - I have no problems with that.... so supply them in non negotiable currency.

Beyond that what's left get's paid in cash. Which has to be worked for incidentally. User pays.

The State (i.e. those of us paying tax) pays them... we get to benefit from them. Work to do people... into the Army to get some training, skills and discipline then off you go... work work work. Not nice cushy work either. Some of the crap people don't really want to do.

This ain't no holiday camp. And if it's dangerous work where everyone depends on everyone else being fully compus mentis... drug test away. Find drugs, lose that job... back to a lower paid one.

If they can't afford to live in Auckland then c'est la vie - they move to somewhere they can afford.

I'm not saying this to win friends - this is the cruel reality of the financial world. You put out, you get back. You no put out, you no get back.

No income = no niceties in life... and God forbid they even THINK about crime. Money saved on the dole goes straight to the cops. Pay rises all round for them... more cops, better equipped and better trained.

Bust any theiving little bastards, put 'em through boot camp... kick some more sense and discipline into them. Nothing brutal, but put them into the Army to drag their sorry arses out of bed at 5:00 and go milk cows or anything that makes them think twice about doing that shit again!

Kinda like a boot camp merry go round. They can choose to get off any time at all - just get a job! I did. Was easy enough. Just find something that's not above your station (you don't climb a ladder from the top...). Start with that and GO!


*ding* next!

[rwh]

Did you miss the point?

What the discussion is about is that many people on the dole spend their money on drugs piss and smokes instead of providing the fundamentals for themselves and their children.
They cant be trusted to make the right choice with their money so the choice should be taken from them and they will be forced to spend their dole allowance on the correct things through use of vouchers that can be spent at pre determined stores like supermarkets and department stores like the warehouse etc etc.

With respect, I think you missed mine. There are cases in which "department stores like the warehouse" are not the right choice. And the fact that someone on is on the dole does not imply that they're incapable of making their own decisions (and nor does it imply that they're spending their money on "drugs piss and smokes").

And whats this "See many of Robert Taylor's posts, that people here mostly seem to agree with ..." do you speak for all the people here

How do you figure that one? For starters, the word "most" clearly doesn't mean the sameas "all"; and it should be clear that I'm summarising what it appears (ie it's my interpretation) to be the majority view. And obviously I'm not 'speaking for' people, since it should be clear that this is an opinion that I disagree with. Finally I don't appreciate the personal insult (this one: in case you didn't get that).

Richard

[scumdog]

oooOOOooo harsh words.... hard to fault though.
Yes. Vouchers for food and drink, power and water. Everyone needs the essentials - I have no problems with that.... so supply them in non negotiable currency.

No income = no niceties in life... and God forbid they even THINK about crime.

Sound like what it's like in South Dakota already (and other States I cannot recall.
Also in California if you get parole?
It's just like prison, cops can search your room without warrant etc etc, you have bugger all rights different to those in prison.
You dont' like those rules? Feel free to return to prison.

[rwh]

Yes. Vouchers for food and drink, power and water. Everyone needs the essentials - I have no problems with that.... so supply them in non negotiable currency.

Beyond that what's left get's paid in cash. Which has to be worked for incidentally. User pays.

Which will leave them with stuff all time or energy to look for proper work, or money for respectable clothes to do it in, or internet access to send off their email applications, or ...

Now let's think about the person just out of university - fees subsidised by the government, because we don't want people stuck unfairly at their parents' income level, right? - who under your regime will have to take the first labouring job available, since they shouldn't be slacking around on the dole - so they're now paying a little bit of tax on their low-paying job, instead of paying more tax on a job they might have to search for a month or two to get. How is that efficient use of taxpayers' money?

The State (i.e. those of us paying tax) pays them... we get to benefit from them. Work to do people... into the Army to get some training, skills and discipline then off you go... work work work. Not nice cushy work either. Some of the crap people don't really want to do.

Ah. I get it. Unemployed people are inherently inferior, and need punishing for the fact that businesses that could use their skills might not need to employ anybody at the moment. And possibly for their parents' low income as well. Did I get that right?

I'm not saying this to win friends - this is the cruel reality of the financial world. You put out, you get back. You no put out, you no get back.

Right. The sooner we get rid of this 'money rules everything' system, the better IMHO.

No income = no niceties in life... and God forbid they even THINK about crime. Money saved on the dole goes straight to the cops. Pay rises all round for them... more cops, better equipped and better trained.

Bust any theiving little bastards, put 'em through boot camp... kick some more sense and discipline into them. Nothing brutal, but put them into the Army to drag their sorry arses out of bed at 5:00 and go milk cows or anything that makes them think twice about doing that shit again!

Kinda like a boot camp merry go round. They can choose to get off any time at all - just get a job! I did. Was easy enough. Just find something that's not above your station (you don't climb a ladder from the top...). Start with that and GO!


*ding* next!

Hmm. Maybe you were being sarcastic? It gets hard to tell sometimes ... hopefully my effort at sarcasm was clear enough.

Richard

[ManDownUnder]

Na mate - the sarcasm was loud and clear... rather than fight with words - let me clarify my position.

My overall "aim" would be to get people into work, to bolster their economy and that of the nation as a whole. That said - I'll address points raised - they obviously point out flaws or omissions in my original post.

Which will leave them with stuff all time or energy to look for proper work, or money for respectable clothes to do it in, or internet access to send off their email applications, or ...

I hear you and no - that would simply defeat what I'm aiming for. Anyone looking for work gets that as top priority. That's the key to get out of the training and discipline cycle (and by discipline I'm not talking the punishment sense. Literally the discipline to get out of bed in the morning, to respect your neighbour, to rely on others and be reliable yourself. To some that may be "punishment" in which case... they need it!)

Now let's think about the person just out of university - fees subsidised by the government, because we don't want people stuck unfairly at their parents' income level, right? - who under your regime will have to take the first labouring job available, since they shouldn't be slacking around on the dole - so they're now paying a little bit of tax on their low-paying job, instead of paying more tax on a job they might have to search for a month or two to get. How is that efficient use of taxpayers' money?

It's the first step on the ladder. It's the very ladder I am climbing and funnily enough you have very closely described my life as an apprentice at my first job. I did my time, learned respect and discipline, and also learned there are ugly jobs out there that while they were "beneath me" as a fitter at a power station, it didn't meant they could be ignored.

Grit on the ground meant wear on the engines if it hit the air intakes... so someone had to sweep around the units. Fun? No. Essential? Yes.

Combine that with my first point of economic improvement being the goal and you will get the lower end, unskilled jobs being done by people who are either happy to do them, or those that haven't found their next calling yet. It means they are employed, and contributing in the meantime though.

Also note... at no point did I ever say the world owes you a living. It doesn't. I have that degree you refer to, and combined with my experience as an apprentice I knew that. I started low, aimed high and started climbing. I'm making it. It's not always been easy but it's always been in a forward direction. Always will be.

I'm young enough (38), successful in my chosen field and now dedicate a portion of my time to helping up those around me. I guess it's a bit of a crusade for me because it annoys the crap out of me when people don't understand the basics.

• You don't leave Uni and walk into a plumb job. You start your climb from the bottom of the ladder.
• The world does NOT owe you a living.
• If you're not willing to push the broom yourself, what's going to happen with person who does rings in sick?
• It's nice the State helps those in need, but never confuse "in need" for "needy". Two very different things.
• You are ALWAYS free to improve your lot.
• The cards will not always fall face up. Stand up, brush yourself off... have another go.
• Honesty and integrity stand the test of time. Deceipt and selfishness don't.

On those points... there's a young guy on here that is doing the best he can and starting to make his way in life. He has a few things against him at the moment... so does he lie down and give up? I haven't seen him do it yet.

He's needed a kick in the pants from time to time (as we all do), and when he's ready he does something about it. skidMark is that man. I have a lot of time for him despite dishing out shit to him on a regular basis.

Ah. I get it. Unemployed people are inherently inferior, and need punishing for the fact that businesses that could use their skills might not need to employ anybody at the moment. And possibly for their parents' low income as well. Did I get that right?

LOL nice dig and no.

I have a rule that education and intelligence should never (EVER) be confused. Judging a book by the cover of another is just plain stupid. Employment status simply reflects the effectiveness of an inidividual trying to match their offerings with the needs of industry. My thought is to assist those with the skills meet those needing them. Training, discipline and job hunting are all focussed on exactly that.

If the job on offer isn't one that suits my primary skills (i.e. isn't one I want to ideally do) then I take it and do it while I seek my ideal job... again - a mirror of my current career path. Trust me - it works and works well.

Let's turn that on it's head. I promise you I will never be on the dole a day in my life. Why? Because if I lost my job, I'd have my CV in every recruitment agency in the top 1/2 of the NI and I'd be sweeping streets if I had to in order to keep my family fed. ... and yes I am serious... The concept of a job being "beneath" someone... beneath ANYONE ... is abhorrent. If there is a job that needs doing, and I have nothing else to do - why would I not do it? Why SHOULD I not do it?

Right. The sooner we get rid of this 'money rules everything' system, the better IMHO.

Agreed, the US system sucks. Money runs politics (political sponsorship), affects people's health (them with the biggest advertising budgets sell more of their drugs... rather than the patient getting the most appropriate treatment), remedies all social ills (you punch me, I sue you - but that $5,000 award doesn't take the pain away), and passes the blame onto those with money rather than those actually responsible (In the US... person A shoots person B and who gets sued? The gun maker - because that's where the money is!!!!)

I'm actually talking about the economic benefit to the country and individuals. The ability of the country to produce more and have a more powerful producing workforce because we don't have the financial drain of those that find it too easy sitting back lounging around while drinking from the State tit. This frees money for the internal services - Police, Infrastructure, Health, Education which in turn benefits those using those systems (free health and education... not bad things right?)

At the inidividual level people are contributing, have pride in themselves and their communities. They stop the naval gazing and selfishness that's somehow crept in over the last 50 years, and if we see a neighbour that needs help doing something, we have the moxy, discipline, and resources to actually pop over and help.

People will benefit financially, socially, and (what's the word...?) from a charater growth perspective... integrity I guess.

I see those traits in my father and my Uncles and Aunts. I see it in a number of people, but I see it being knocked out of large sections of some communities. The dole kicks in, it's easier and more lucrative to have a baby and go on the DPB, their young life will be "complete" because there is a lack of other potential - of other inspiration - and of love. That self worth isn't there, and it's contagious because the dole and drugs etc are so lucrative to people without hope and with too much idle time on their hands.

That particular cancer has to be exorcised... and as with cancer, each successive generation gets more and more entrenched. Tough love will be needed in spots. People will need to be pried out of their comfy places and back into the unfamiliar. I have no problem with that.

Hmm. Maybe you were being sarcastic? It gets hard to tell sometimes ... hopefully my effort at sarcasm was clear enough.

Richard

Sorry for the rant - I hope it clarifies.

[Mr Merde]

A very interesting discussion.

I will reserve my input for a day to better clarify my thoughts.


Just a small point.

During the depression in the early 1930's didnt the government create work for a lot of people. The forestry industry springs to mind. They planted millions of pine trees and basicall started our forestry industry.

My granddad was one of those people. He had to leave his kids in an orphanage (grannie died of TB) and follow the work.

I suppose there was a higher work ethic in those days and much less reliance upon a "nanny state" looking after you from cradle to grave.

Merde

[deanohit]

Let's turn that on it's head. I propmise you I will never be on the dole a day in my life. Why? Because if I lost my job, I'd have my CV in every recruitment agency in the top 1/2 of the NI and I'd be sweeping streets if I had to in order to keep my family fed. ... and yes I am serious... The concept of a job being "beneath" someone... beneath ANYONE ... is abhorrent. If there is a job that needs doing, and I have nothing else to do - why would I not do it?

Bloody good one mate and something too many people dont do which is a big part of the whole problem been disscussed here.

[Pancakes]

Did you miss the point?

What the discussion is about is that many people on the dole spend their money on drugs piss and smokes instead of providing the fundamentals for themselves and their children.
They cant be trusted to make the right choice with their money so the choice should be taken from them and they will be forced to spend their dole allowance on the correct things through use of vouchers that can be spent at pre determined stores like supermarkets and department stores like the warehouse etc etc.

And whats this "See many of Robert Taylor's posts, that people here mostly seem to agree with ..." do you speak for all the people here:stupid:

I think he means that those on the dole should be able to buy top notch suspension? What a fricken joke!! I totally agree with the vouchers etc idea not for people with extra or out of the ordinary issues with finding work but definatly for people who just don't want to take the work thats going and build on things from there. It's not about making the kids suffer at all. In fact, they'll be better off if mum spends the money at the supermarket instead of the pub and I'm pretty sure thats the train of thought among the majority of supporters of this idea.

[rwh]

I think he means that those on the dole should be able to buy top notch suspension? What a fricken joke!!

I mean they should be able to buy a decent pair of pyjamas that won't catch fire or poison them with formaldehyde.

Richard

[Pancakes]

I mean they should be able to buy a decent pair of pyjamas that won't catch fire or poison them with formaldehyde.

Richard

You think your $100 Nike T-shirt isn't made in China!?