Now I've heard it all

[Ocean1]

Exactly...so why does it never seem to happen?

unless we get some REALLY strong champions to change the legislation and address those lobbyists that care so profoundly for the inmates individual rights - regardless of their penchant for crime, drugs or other activities that push the boundaries of 'acceptable' society rules - then you are pushing shit uphill.

It's a simple enough concept, isn't it?

I'm often suspicious of "simple", but in this case I believe the solution's tactically easy. Prisons in isolated areas, one well controlled means of access. No physical contact with visitors. Shit I get worse treatment in any airport, and I pay good money for it.

The policy changes required? Ditch the lot and start again.

[007XX]

To a point, but eventually they managed to change collective wisdom, science, governments and the way people live.

I guess this is getting a little off-topic but I've never thought that "too hard" is a valid reason for not trying.

Don't get me wrong, I am not entirely cynical about trying...But I am a bit jaded as to the lack of collective action of a nation such as ours...

I would honnestly love for us to be able to say :ENOUGH, and something actually happens. But I have been hearing ramblings for so long, and nothing coming off it, that I am despairing a bit...And the individual gets treated as an undesirable rather than a clear thinker...

[ManDownUnder]

Can you run for Prime Minister?..Honnest, I'd vote for someone who thinks like that and ACTUALLY carries it out, not just says that to get the votes, then lines their pockets and just forgets about all promises made...

I hate to say it but I'm seriously starting to think about that. I'm so annoyed with the current self serving, bickering set of Pollys... Problem is too much time away from home and family... and I really can't be arsed with politics. It's bullshit.

[007XX]

I'm often suspicious of "simple", but in this case I believe the solution's tactically easy. Prisons in isolated areas, one well controlled means of access. No physical contact with visitors. Shit I get worse treatment in any airport, and I pay good money for it.

The policy changes required? Ditch the lot and start again.

Oh, how I do like the way you think!

[Laava]

My neighbour was one of the prison guards at Club Ngawha. He was telling me about the whole corrupt way the prisons operate, quite an eye opener! CN IS run by the Black Power and my neighbour[X] reckons they do a good job, keeping order etc! Isn't that interesting? Anyway, one day when the drug and cellphone use was getting way out of hand they organised a general full cell search with extra staff bought in, unbeknownst to the inmates. X reckoned it was really interesting to see who didn't show up for work that day! So apparently these staff members are told what they will be doing and bringing in by the BP, and they have no choice. So not only are drugs rife, they are actively used to control the prison population.
Me, I'm all for zero physical contact with visitors and less privileges.
But that's just my opinion.

[sAsLEX]

I hate to say it but I'm seriously starting to think about that. I'm so annoyed with the current self serving, bickering set of Pollys... Problem is too much time away from home and family... and I really can't be arsed with politics. It's bullshit.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”


See above MDU........ but I see your point.

I love it when the lefty shit heads question my serving my country... go fuck yourselves.

Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few

lest they forget that.......

[Her_C4]

The PC brigade have take the conversation too far to the left. I think we're looking a range of options for corrective help that don't seem to really work keeping people from re-offending, but they cost more.

We must be getting close to the time where we (as a society) simply say "ENOUGH".

We have the options of
a) Spending $75,000/prisoner and have a reoffending rate of 70%
or
b) Spending $30,000/prisoner and have a reoffending rate of 70%

I vote b - and put the cash saved into longer sentences, better working conditions, pay and staff numbers for essential servicesd (Police, Nursing, teachers) etc and start building society from the ground floor. Teaching people right from wrong, keeping people in good health, keeping the bad bastards off the street and making life enjoyable and more comfortable for those of us in society.

The problem is people are too scared to question the rights of prisoners. I'm not saying don't respect them, I'm saying recognise the fact they have less rights than the rest of society... and move on.

I'd love to hear the thoughts from the prison officers/police on that one.

Interesting view and one that has been around for a long while now in different sectors of our illustrious society. I would be very surprised if you didn't get support for your views from a range of different groups, including prison and police staff..

I feel it is worthy of note however that it pays to remember that a lot of us are not angels, and have had times in our lives where for whatever reason we have deliberately chosen to live a more law abiding life at some point or another rather than continue down the well trodden path of our peers and 'mates' ... (now where was that thread about the rambunctious teenager????)

For me? - I am NOT perfect, and for many inside our prison walls they are just like me - or just like I could have been but for the grace of God. Despite my previous headlong path into obliteration (from which I am long recovered) I would like to think that society would see that 'me' as someone who 'hiccuped' and was worthy supporting and helping to change and had the means to provide it. Am I the only one?

So distinguish between those that have erred / lapsed and those who need to be habilitated (for how can you rehabilitate someone who has never been habilitated in the first instance?) and then again those recidivists who never will be and (whether through nature or nurture) have become all they ever will be.

There is a LOOOOT of work being carried out inside prison walls that you are obviously not aware of - both from individual staff who are committed to make a difference, to the wider forum - to address your comments about "Teaching people right from wrong, keeping people in good health."

I don’t think that anyone is ‘too scared’ to question the rights of prisoners and I am surprised by your statement as it has come across as unnecessarily emotive. The PC brigade has done its work well if that is what you believe.

Legislation has been passed that provides for longer sentences but in my mind we do not make use of the Preventive Detention option in this country and we allow hard core recidivists to be released out into the streets to associate and influence our loved ones.

THREE STRIKES AND YOU ARE OUT seems to be a rather good and fair option to me. And hey – here is a thought - lets use the legislation that we already have to the fullest extend before we try and reinvent the wheel.

[Ocean1]

I hate to say it but I'm seriously starting to think about that. I'm so annoyed with the current self serving, bickering set of Pollys... Problem is too much time away from home and family... and I really can't be arsed with politics. It's bullshit.

Yup, it’s a fallacy that they’re there to serve “us”. They’re just the major pieces in a grubby war over resources. So rather than wasting your time and fucking up your own life to take your designated place on the board take a leaf out of the lobbyists handbook. What do we know about these dudes?: http://www.safe-nz.org.nz/

Oh, how I do like the way you think!

Only 'cos you can watch the perdy ickle gears moving.

[007XX]

THREE STRIKES AND YOU ARE OUT seems to be a rather good and fair option to me. And hey – here is a thought - lets use the legislation that we already have to the fullest extend before we try and reinvent the wheel.

And all of the above content before that...massive ! I couldn't agree more, even if I tried...*oh and yeah, must spread myself around before giving it to Her_B4 again...*

[007XX]

Only 'cos you can watch the perdy ickle gears moving.

Oh yeah...And probably because the clunking noises from them echos in my own head!

[ManDownUnder]

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”


See above MDU........ but I see your point.

OUCH - a good point but there's only so much one good man can do - and with respect I'm probably doing more than most (just the facts - at the risk of a public autostimulation session)

Just wish i could do more, but as I say - self serving pollies piss me off... I'll save that rant for a more appropriate thread.

... very reluctant snip...

THREE STRIKES AND YOU ARE OUT seems to be a rather good and fair option to me. And hey – here is a thought - lets use the legislation that we already have to the fullest extend before we try and reinvent the wheel.

Yes! I like the three strikes rule. I'm sure it needs defining more (i.e. does theft of a packet of gum at age 10 count as a strike?)

And there but for the grace of God goes I too. Been there, done that and a fgew know some of my stories. I'm no angel either. I was lucky enough to see where my bread was buttered and chose to learn to feed myself.

My mother's quote on my 16th birthday is typical of the support I got.
"Son - you're legally responsible now. From now on, if you end up in prison I promise to visit".

It put a lot of things in perspective for me real quick. I am accountable for my actions. And in being accountable, I am entitled to hold others accountable for those actions of theirs that affect me.

All the good work and research being done inside prison is not to be poo pood. My underlying concern is that the best system available needs to be in place. My concern is that we'll never know if it's not there... how long do we keep looking, and pouring money in - at the direct expense of the very society we're supposed to be protecting?

And being too scared to question the rights of prisoners? The PC brigade would have them dressed well, confortable, accepted and hugged 3 times a day before they go watch their TV or play with a playstation (God forbid they get bored or feel victimised). I'm a HUGE fan of restorative justice. I see no restoration happening when the bastard gets comfortably locked down and the wife of an attack victim goes on the struggle eeking out a living after their loved one was killed by the P addicted junkie.

[Her_C4]

OUCH - a good point but there's only so much one good man can do - and with respect I'm probably doing more than most (just the facts - at the risk of a public autostimulation session)

Just wish i could do more, but as I say - self serving pollies piss me off... I'll save that rant for a more appropriate thread.



Yes! I like the three strikes rule. I'm sure it needs defining more (i.e. does theft of a packet of gum at age 10 count as a strike?)

And there but for the grace of God goes I too. Been there, done that and a fgew know some of my stories. I'm no angel either. I was lucky enough to see where my bread was buttered and chose to learn to feed myself.

My mother's quote on my 16th birthday is typical of the support I got.
"Son - you're legally responsible now. From now on, if you end up in prison I promise to visit".

It put a lot of things in perspective for me real quick. I am accountable for my actions. And in being accountable, I am entitled to hold others accountable for those actions of theirs that affect me.

All the good work and research being done inside prison is not to be poo pood. My underlying concern is that the best system available needs to be in place. My concern is that we'll never know if it's not there... how long do we keep looking, and pouring money in - at the direct expense of the very society we're supposed to be protecting?

And being too scared to question the rights of prisoners? The PC brigade would have them dressed well, confortable, accepted and hugged 3 times a day before they go watch their TV or play with a playstation (God forbid they get bored or feel victimised). I'm a HUGE fan of restorative justice. I see no restoration happening when the bastard gets comfortably locked down and the wife of an attack victim goes on the struggle eeking out a living after their loved one was killed by the P addicted junkie.

I agree with sAsLEX – and there is plenty one can do if one is prepared to move from the comfy couch of apathy. Lobbyists are not all the ‘PC Brigade’ but because they are the ones that jump up and down and make the most noise and are also mostly responsible for the ‘selective’ or partial reporting of truths, then they are the ones that the NZ Public most readily identify with.

You want to make a difference? Then get the hell out there and make a noise (thats everyone not just YOU ) – the Sensible Sentencing and Restorative Justice Trusts are but two avenues available for people to add their weight (and voices) to.

PS – You are very fortunate indeed to have such a supportive parent – not everyone has / had one that would be prepared to state that in such a clear and concise manner – the point being that some people learnt the lesson of responsibility by themselves and often later than their teenage years – if at all.

[Shadows]

I know.... The fuckers should be locked up. That'll fix 'em.

[candor]

It's not about the PC brigade - just pure greed.

Who owns the methadone factory - the PMs former advisor owns about a half share.

Who else has shares - people very influential in the health sector eg Ministry of health and two eccentric Texan ornithologists!

How much profit are they making - 500% increase in exports to Oz last 5 years customs tell me, and now trying to crack the new Asian market.

How do they justify giving it to inmates - they got some studies done elsewhere that show lower mortality on the few weeks after release for addicts given methadone - as their tolerance hasn't dropped by the time they get hard out back into it.

But - this doesn't help us - it means more addicts running round killing us on the roads.

I have a parole hearing in couple weeks to attend for my Mums killer (he crossed centreline on methadone - yet again - to kill her and our dog in oncoming car).

Well because they had him on methadone inside of course when he giot early release (after serving 6 mths for Mums homicide) he of course reoffended. WHAT A TOTAL SURPRISE.

So he got recalled to jail a few weeks ago, and as is his right he has applied for home release again. Because the prison has maintained his addiction his IQ will remain lowered from the methadone, and he will reoffend yet again and WON'T THAT BE A SURPRISE.

But at least he won't OD within weeks of his release since his drug tolerance won't be lowered. Just remain a lethal weapon - how very civilised.

Methadone has replaced the option of recovery from addiction in NZ - as years ago the Govt (including the PMs right hand advisor) decided that rehabs don't work. Once an addict...

It's called greed. Biodone factory puts nice 60 year olds like my Mum and nice old men like the guy a methadonian hit in CHCH lately... in painful graves.

On the roads these people the system has given no chance to are causing havoc. It wouldn't be so bad if they just took methadone which is not so intoxicating on its own (if not injected)- the requirement of civilised foreign programs.

But here patients can't be kicked off so 70% continue with regular polydrug use. Most sell part of their dose to P freaks to help them come down or sell it to others (who die) for pin money.

Many also use P to try and get rid of the lethargy from the drug so its kinda ironic that methadone manufacturers in Oz and the U.S. are now trialing treating P addicts with methadone (as it's a less harmful addiction than P for foetuses - call it social engineering).

It's all just about greed... but the pharm companies are adept at convincing governments it's all very rational and cost effective - versus addicts (classified incurable by definition) doing bulk burgs to pay for expensive opiates.

Only thing is that (hidden away) studies show the offending doesn't drop much as they soon develop P habits to maintain. Methadone is not rehab how our system works it.

[The Pastor]

wait a minute, 30 000/prisoner? thats what i earn a year!