NZ Police: Safety or $$$ (A little fuel to the fire)

[kiwifruit]

I know who ill be voting for next election

http://www.maoriparty.com/
a wise choice

[Boob Johnson]

http://www.maoriparty.com/
a wise choice

lol seriously doubt that. Not all Maori's vote for the Maori party so why would a lil ol white boy vote for them?

[Monsterbishi]

In comparison, cardiovascular disease kills 10,500 people per year in NZ and costs an estimated 500 mill annually, but apart from the GST paid on KFC and junk food there is no direct taxes or public health service charges for this problem.

Anyway, just my two cents.

Ever wondered how much it costs to the taxpayer per fatality on NZ roads? A statistic that you haven't posted actually.

(On average) $2 million - per person.

That's $816 million in the last 12 months.

Road deaths are, for the most part, a avoidable situation, I work in traffic management, so attend serious and fatal accidents on a regular basis. Not surprisingly enough, every single fatal/serious that I've ever attended has had at least one of these two contributing factors:

1. Excess Speed
2. Excess Alcohol

If you want to complain about how little funding cardiovascular disease research gets - think about the $800 million of taxpayers money that could be funneled into that if people simply just slowed down, and didn't drive drunk. That's the entire running cost of the NZ police, and three times more than what tickets generate.

Infringement notices don't even start to scratch the surface of what serious accidents and fatalities cost the New Zealand taxpayer.

People just don't realise how expensive things are behind the scenes, another example I'll provide, ever wondered why littering fines are so expensive? I had a course postponed today at work, so went out with one of my works network cleanup crews to tidy up the rubbish that had built up on a bridge, costs the taxpayer about $400/hour for three guys to do this, wonder how necessary it was? six hours and twenty rubbish bags chock full, and that was less than one third of one side of the bridge.

[karmakillernz]

People just don't realise how expensive things are behind the scenes, another example I'll provide, ever wondered why littering fines are so expensive? I had a course postponed today at work, so went out with one of my works network cleanup crews to tidy up the rubbish that had built up on a bridge, costs the taxpayer about $400/hour for three guys to do this

The real question is why are we paying $400/hour for street cleanup when there are thousands of unemployed people on the dole at this very moment? Hell, for $133 an hour I'll happily get myself a stick with a nail in it and hit the streets...

[Macstar]

2 mill eh? That's a huge amount. Let me raise another question then. Does anyone know what portion of road deaths are caused from inadequate roads, signage etc vs speed & alcohol?

[Hitcher]

Ever wondered how much it costs to the taxpayer per fatality on NZ roads? A statistic that you haven't posted actually.

(On average) $2 million - per person.

That $2 million isn't the cost to the taxpayer for a road death. It's an actuarial calculation based on the contribution an individual makes over the course of their life i.e. lifetime contribution foregone. The cost to the taxpayer for a fatal road accident is considerably less than $2 million, on average.

[scumdog]

2 mill eh? That's a huge amount. Let me raise another question then. Does anyone know what portion of road deaths are caused from inadequate roads, signage etc vs speed & alcohol?

Inadequate roads and signage?

Sounds like a cop-out for inferior driving ability. (in most cases)

Goin by the tickets I give out it is not 7 out of 10 Kiwis getting tickets.

It's more 3 of 10 drongos are getting tickets week after week and up to three tickets at one hit.

The rest of us clued up sensible ones aren't getting jack-shit in the way of tickets.

[Jantar]

Ever wondered how much it costs to the taxpayer per fatality on NZ roads? A statistic that you haven't posted actually.

(On average) $2 million - per person.

That's $816 million in the last 12 months.

Road deaths are, for the most part, a avoidable situation, I work in traffic management, so attend serious and fatal accidents on a regular basis. Not surprisingly enough, every single fatal/serious that I've ever attended has had at least one of these two contributing factors:

1. Excess Speed
2. Excess Alcohol

.

I just love reading junk statistics, and these claims are the junkiest I've seen today.

Hitcher has already pointed out the error in the $2M figure in that it is not a cost to the taxpayer, it isn't even a cost to society, it is a loss of potential income to the deceased person. Fatalities actually cost the taxpayer a much smaller sum than most injuries do.

As to the claim that excess speed contributes to motor vehicle accidents; that too has been disproved on many occassions. On MOT figures exceeding the speed limit is a contributing factor in 14% of all fatal accidents. Note the use of "contributing factor" rather than "cause". The insurance council list exceeding the speed limit as a "cause" in 5% of claims. They dont distinguish between fatal and non fatal accidents.

However the MOT also have an accident class called Speeding. This is defined as "too fast for the conditions". Speeding includes such aspects as driving while fatigued, driving while distracted etc. So if you crash while yawning, but under the speed limit, that is likely to be classed as speeding.

[Monsterbishi]

That $2 million isn't the cost to the taxpayer for a road death. It's an actuarial calculation based on the contribution an individual makes over the course of their life i.e. lifetime contribution foregone. The cost to the taxpayer for a fatal road accident is considerably less than $2 million, on average.

That's not what we've been informed, that's the cost of each event, factoring in the cost of all in attendance, the hardware in use, and the following investigations, compensation, etc. Lifetime contribution forgone isin't part of the numbers that we're given to work off. I'll raise it as a question at the next course I get put on though, that's not something I've seen on the graphs before.

Macstar - of the remainder of non alcohol/speed related accidents, signage issues haven't been a measurable problem, ask most roadworkers about signage, and the general concensus is that there is too much on New Zealand roads, to the point of galvanising people to the presence of signs, which then causes problems - ie dangerous driving/loss of control through worksites. Roading conditions are part of the problem, but there's usually other factors like fatigue that come into play, so is hard to measure.

karmakillernz - if you think you can provide a state highway cleanup service that includes suitable traffic management, refuse disposal and efficient service for less than $200/hour then good luck, you'll be in debt up to your eyeballs within the first week, and closed by the second.

[Mekk]

So if the cops are revenue gathering bastards out to pillage townships and go swimming in money a la Scrooge McDuck...may I ask what anyone's doing about it?

Everyone could exercise self-control and not break the speed limit as a giant counter-offensive! Let's hit those suckers where it counts! We don't want these greedy police scum running the country after all.

Ok seriously, is there any point to this thread other than to bitch? I mean, is anyone actually going to do anything?

[The Tazman]

But mate, all the accidents are happening at 111kmh! Thats what the tv ads tell us.

Yep, its about the moolah alright. Same as UK and Aussie. Thats why HP hang around spots where ordinary pay easy Joe is going to get pinged and not at accident blackspots. But hey, at least quotas keep them off the back roads.

Shit if they were really interested in lowering the road toll they'd do something about the standard of driving, but that would be costly and not boost govt coffers

Hear hear Jimbo

It's not the speeding it's how your f**king driving.

I'm sick of hearing about speeding. Top Gear proved that only 7% of ALL accidents are speeding ONLY related! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! and that's in a country where there’s 15 times as many people as here!!!

In the UK their speed limit is 120kph and that's what I've been trained (it’s a shame they don't do that here!!) to drive at and have done for the majority of my life so you can't tell me that 110kph is too fast.

Put a newbie, then me, then a racing driver in the same car, same piece of road at the same speed and then tell me that it's the SPEED that's the problem! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

They cut the speed limit from 100 to 80 on SH1 along the coast to Paraparam and what happened..........? more accidents so they had to put in barriers!!!!!!!! But of course it’s the speed!!!!!!

Oh and they do have quotas, I've had it confirmed.

If they spent as much time on real crime as they do on revenue gathering we'd have one of the best crime figures in the world.

Don't get me wrong I think in general the police have a bloody tough job and I have good friends and family in the force. But they seem to be making them robots now.

On Traffic cops (UK) on TV the other night an officer said "while they have the ability to use their own judgement it's a good job" or something to that effect. What a shame it's been taken away from our officers over here!!

:rant: over

Hope you all have a fanTAZtic weekend

[Ewan Oozarmy]

Hear hear Jimbo

It's not the speeding it's how your f**king driving.

I'm sick of hearing about speeding. Top Gear proved that only 7% of ALL accidents are speeding ONLY related! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! and that's in a country where there’s 15 times as many people as here!!!

In the UK their speed limit is 120kph and that's what I've been trained (it’s a shame they don't do that here!!) to drive at and have done for the majority of my life so you can't tell me that 110kph is too fast.

Put a newbie, then me, then a racing driver in the same car, same piece of road at the same speed and then tell me that it's the SPEED that's the problem! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

You are completey right, mate, but from the many threads I've read on this site, I don't think it's ever gonna sink in. The majority honestly believe that speed is the problem and not the completely awful standards of driving here.

[90s]

Agree with most arguments on here.
Safe driving and speed are not related. Majority of accidents occur in urban situations where safe driving and not speed are casual factors. We all know what constitutes 'dangerous driving', but proving it is difficult. Using one measure such as speed is simple, although does not actually work to increase safety outside of urban areas.

To reinforce this myopic legal-system enforced idiocy the minister was on Cambell the other day speaking about the decision not to enfore dangerous driving for the use of mobile phones in the car. The minister said that it was impossible to enforce, and not clear that mobiles were more than a contributory factor.

When pressed about the UK etc. that have proved that mobile use is dangerous (I was even involved in some of the studies in a small way via HUSAT in the 1990s) and changed the law to suit, he was evasive and vague. In fact he talked crap.

I wanted then to ask him whether it was worth identifying speed as something that is not a casual factor and changing the law on that.

And monsterbishi, I doubt that you can say you have seen many accidents which are caused soley by speed. The only class of accident that is regulary about speed is young hoons crashing by themselves (I have had a 15 yr old crash into my garden as an example). However, in these cases they were subject to many other dangerous driving factors and offences before speeding. On my corner where I live people can crash easily under the 50k limit - and as a previous post said speeding is not about the limit itself, but the conditions.

As in another thread I spent a few weeks on the peages in France in July and legally was doing 140kph all day. It was safe because drivers were trained. I regularly saw bikes cruising by at 180kph in no danger and causing no danger with no fear of being ticketed.
But as I have argued in yet another thread that is not possible here in NZ - not because of the roads but because of driver training and mentality.

I am totally in favour of reducing the road toll. Proper urban enforcement around school and balck spot areas I would favour.

But taxing us on the open road because it is simple? See the backlash that is generating on here? Extended rant over.

[pritch]

An interesting enough thread but while we all have lots of opinions on the subject not much is new. It may however be therapeutic

So at the risk of repetition I offer the following:

Some years ago I asked a Police Inspector in charge of Traffic in Taranaki if he was familiar with the "Green wave". He had never heard of it.

This system is used in some European cities on major cross town arterial routes. The traffic lights are synchronised so that once you get a green light you should get green lights all the way if you keep travelling at the legal speed. There is no point in speeding, you'll just hit a red light. I thought this may have some application in this country but apparently we are not even aware of its existence.

BIKE magazine a year or two back sought information under the UK equivalent of our Official Information Act. Despite millions being spent in Britain on the Speed Kills campaign and constant repetition of the message that speed was the main cause of accidents, speed ranked as the seventh highest cause of accidents.

This after some manipulation of the statistics, and even allowing for the fact the the average Brit cop is not trained in accident analysis and coming upon a motorcycle accident will usually write up the cause as "motorcycle travelling at excessive speed."

[SimJen]

The amount of sub speed-limit "accidents waiting to happen" drivers is shocking.
As most of you guys will have witnessed while riding bikes, paying attention seems to be the largest problem!
Its far easier to blame something as easy as SPEED!
Most cage drivers think they are perfectly safe at or just under the speed limit, and they've been taught to think that from all the advertising that insists speeding will kill them.
Once they are at this speed they can then forget to pay attention, have a snack or coffee, talk on the cell/txt and possibly have a wank or blowy......
Seems ridiculous, but if you don't speed and haven't had a drink then the mass population thinks nothing else matters and they will reach their destination safely!