Depression...

**Edbear** · 16th September 2007, 08:32

Just to reiterate a couple of points:

Suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness, but one must differentiate between mean selfishness, where one is seeking to advantage oneself at the expense of others, and suicidal selfishness which simply means one is focussed on self. It is not very helpful, though still needs to be pointed out, to remind the depressed person of the effect their suicide would have on others such as their loved ones.

Depression is an insidious illness and the most helpful knowledge is to recognise that the syptoms of the illness are the feelings one gets and the thought processes of the depression. In other words, the blackness, the thoughts and feelings, are genuine symptoms just as pain and redness and swelling are symptoms. The difference is they don't show up on an x-ray or under a microscope.

So when one "feels" the deep sadness, the helplessness and hopelessness, when one becomes in the grip of the 'black dog", try to view it as a symptom of a disease, not as a reality of life or the situation. Try to understand that the strong reaction you have to a comment or a word or a look, the reaction that plunges you into the black depths, is a symptom not reality and that like a panic attack or a headache, it will pass. Do whatever you need to do to ride it out, if it means going to bed and pulling the curtains and hiding under the pillow, do so. Try not to allow yourself to dwell on the negativity but say to yourself, "If I can ride it out, it will pass and I will come up again".

Also, try not to react to the words or looks of those around you who may have said or done something to cause the internal reaction, thereby exacerbating the situation and worsening it.

dmouse, remember what life was like "before" and think about when and how you changed from the man you were. Is it that life is different now, that your situation is different, or is it that something very traumatic and painful happened and affected you long term, long after the physical wounds healed?

Is your depression an illness resulting from that and therefore a problem that can be dealt with? Are your wife and children and your Grandchild different now, or are they just as precious and beautiful as they always have been and is it rather that you have "injuries" that need treatment?

There is no easy or quick fix and one must first recognise two important things. 1 - It is going to take time, maybe in terms of years rather than months or weeks. 2- It CAN be improved and one CAN get back one's positive outlook and find enjoyment in life and family again.

On point one, you must allow yourself the time to heal. Often one becomes despondent at the lack of progress and the fact that one cannot just "snap out of it". HAving a realistic view and being patient with oneself is essential if one is going to recover at all.

Point two, like a broken leg, or a cut or a bruise, depression can be treated. One doesn't expect a broken leg to heal in couple of days, either. So one treats it accordingly.

Get a proper medical check-up as the first step and don't be afraid of professional help and medications. There are medical reasons for some symptoms and mood swings and depression are listed as side effects of many different illnesses as are memory loss and confusion.

I have recently been diagnosed with Cushing's Syndrome, (Google it), and to my surprise, poor memory and altered mood are two of the symptoms!

**Busy** · 16th September 2007, 09:19

While I agree with most of your post, there is a lot missing.

Suicide is not a selfishness act, the person is lower than flea snot at the time so believes is a burden on everyone he/she knows, meets, associates with. It's more like a human nature action, say you were in a blow up raft, 3 friends jumped in and it started to sink, if you jump out it may stay afloat, is that selfishness? I could give thousands of examples and add many "what ifs" but hopefully everyone gets the idea.

I believe people are being conditioned into thinking life is a game. (I have to word this next part right so as not to spark a riot) When we are young we are told when we die we go to a better place, a place so beautiful, so peaceful, so bright ... then we have video games (am not against these), there are many shot em up style games where you have to survive before moving up, but no one does it straight off and the 'reset' button is often used. Is suicide a reset button?

Also when the black dog bites, you can be anywhere along a scale, at one part of the scale there is no past, no memories, no future, no love, just now, which is usually a dark place. It may or may not have sucidal thoughts but usually from this point you have to go lower to get beyond it.

Why do people take their own lives? remember I'm not a trained professional but have had a bit to do with it. A lot of people feel they are walking the wrong way up an esculator, they are tied, they want to give up because they are holding everyone up (people going the right way), they are a burden to others, ending it would make it easier for others ... What some people need is to give up running up the esculator, go to the bottom and take a run at it but this is where the 'no turning back' point is, after so much energy going the wrong way up it is easier to give up.

If a horse has a broken leg it is put down
If a cat or dog gets old (and has problems) it is put down
When a human is suffering they can't be put down
When a human wants to die because of the suffering they are selfish? who is selfish, the people who wont allow the person to end it or the person wanting to end it?

**Edbear** · 16th September 2007, 09:58

Originally Posted by Busy

While I agree with most of your post, there is a lot missing.

Suicide is not a selfishness act, the person is lower than flea snot at the time so believes is a burden on everyone he/she knows, meets, associates with. It's more like a human nature action, say you were in a blow up raft, 3 friends jumped in and it started to sink, if you jump out it may stay afloat, is that selfishness? I could give thousands of examples and add many "what ifs" but hopefully everyone gets the idea.

Yeah, perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more. As I said, the person is focussed on self. We're differentiating between sacrificing oneself for the good of others and suiciding because one is depressed. If one is feeling this way, they are focusssing on themselves while thinking they are doing others a favour by killing themselves.

An example would be to make a point of focussing on say, your wife's situation. If one is feeling they are a burden to their wife and that she would be better off without them, that she could go and find someone she really deserves who would look after her, etc. Try to think about her persepective. How does she feel? What does she think? What issues and problems is she facing in her life?

While I have been very sick for several years and have been battling serious health issues, I have had to make a conscious effort to focus on my wife and children, to keep reminding myself that they have problems and issues, too. My wife has heart arythmias and chest pains and has been suffering intestinal problems and has been very stressed about my health, especially with my recent diagnosis. She reads words like "tumours, surgery, radiation and chemotherapy" and freaks out!

The kids have their issues to deal with as well and I try to focus on their needs and be as encouraging as I can be for them.

As I said, it's not easy, depression is insidious and dangerous and I'm not referring to what is known medically as "the simple blues", but clinical depression which requires medical intervention. It is a combination of mental thought processes and physical symptoms. It is important to treat the physical symptoms via medication if one is to be able to address the thoughts and emotions. Don't believe it's "just in the mind" and can be "got over" by "hardening up". That may help with the blues, but not with depression.

**Winston001** · 16th September 2007, 13:42

Originally Posted by Edbear

Suicide is the ultimate act of selfishness, but one must differentiate between mean selfishness, where one is seeking to advantage oneself at the expense of others, and suicidal selfishness which simply means one is focussed on self. It is not very helpful, though still needs to be pointed out, to remind the depressed person of the effect their suicide would have on others such as their loved ones.

An excellent post Ed but I'd just like to take issue with the above point. I appreciate you have elaborated further.

The problem with the word "selfish" is that it is pejorative - judgmental. We don't like selfish people. Selfish is bad, ergo the suicide victim is bad. This makes everyone else feel better. I know this because I recently hear a man describe his dead sister-in-law as being all about herself - she was selfish to take her life.

This man is a decent person but has never experienced depression and does not have the remotest conception of the pain and depths of despair the woman was feeling.

When a person is at their lowest, there is no sense of self. They feel irrelevant. They cannot feel empathy for others - this is a classic sign of clinical depression. They actually believe that their family and friends, everybody, will be better off if they die. It is the right thing to do.

Also the psychic pain is so bad that death is the only escape. It is actually a logical step. I'm not saying that we should accept suicide as valid but I hear the word selfish so often and know that it simply makes depressed people feel worse. Not only are you in a black void but all the healthy people around you imply that you are a bad person for having suicidal thoughts.

Please people, do not use or even think of suicide as selfish. I know it looks like that but, from the inside it is rational in an awful way.

**Edbear** · 16th September 2007, 14:12

Originally Posted by Winston001

An excellent post Ed but I'd just like to take issue with the above point. I appreciate you have elaborated further...
....

I take your point, Winston001. I was using the word in a literal sense and did not intend it to be taken in the usual way.

I agree, that the suicider is thinking they are doing others a favour by taking themselves out of the picture, hence my further post.

Also, I re-read my post above and my comment about trying to be as encouraging as possible to my wife and children needs further explanation. When one feels as though they are useless, it can be another barrier, as one feels perhaps that they cannot encourage others or help them with their problems because they themselves are unable to solve their own or that they really don't know anything anyway. It is a complete lack of self-confidence.

This is the insidious thing about depression, for every solution, one comes up with a reason why it won't work or doesn't apply to them. This is why a critical part of the treatment is to understand that the feelings and thoughts are symptoms, not reality. If one believes they are reality, then it is not possible to defeat them. Also this is why I support professional and medical help. The medication can help to avoid crashing, and physically supports one so that one can think more rationally about the issues they face. Often without it, the depressed person can't lift themselves up far enough.

Medication should be seen for what it is, not a cure, but a way of dealing with the physical aspect of depression that may allow one to address the underlying cause. I was always skeptical of drugs and professionals, but have seen the results and am much more supportive these days. Rather than feel one is failure because one "had to get help", understand that you have knowledge, experience and intelligence and take control of your treatment, listen and evaluate, and self-examine to see where the counsel may fit.

Knowledge is power, as knowledge means choices and confidence. Research and study, as it gives purpose and meaning. "Know your enemy". He can be defeated.

**Winston001** · 16th September 2007, 16:24

Originally Posted by Edbear

....... I support professional and medical help. The medication can help to avoid crashing, and physically supports one so that one can think more rationally about the issues they face. Often without it, the depressed person can't lift themselves up far enough.

Medication should be seen for what it is, not a cure, but a way of dealing with the physical aspect of depression that may allow one to address the underlying cause. I was always skeptical of drugs and professionals......

Yeah I agree. The medication rebalances the neuro-transmitters in the brain and we start to think normally after a while. Once that is achieved we are more able to rationally accept advice and look at what psychological issues triggered the depession.

You know, I used to be very cynical about counsellors. I thought they were ineffectual, touchy feely. However I'm now 100% in favour of counselling. My experience with my own counsellor is that he has proved an intelligent listening ear and introduced points of view I'd never considered. That is cognitive therapy. Things I thought bad (such as being obsessive and analytical) are actually good traits, its just that there is a psychic price to be paid. Once you realise there is a positive aspect it becomes easier to accept yourself.

Ultimately everyone has some neurosis, but there are reasons and strengths built into them. Interesting.

**dmouse** · 17th September 2007, 11:40

we are all raised to trust doctors and allways do as the doc says and take what ever you are given, do they ever get it wrong how do you define mental illness or depression, it comes in many shapes and forms, if you read my story i clearly state that i was not depressed but suffering from PTSD ( post traumatic stress disorder ) i did not need the physcotic medications given to me, these made me deppressed and suicidal, its a well know fact in the USA that most mass murders of late ie columbine high school, these killers were on prescribed anti physcotic meds, one man after taking aropax for less than a week killed his wife daughter son and grand daughter.

these meds affect people in different ways they are mind altering drugs, that are prescribed by GP`s that are not trained to use them, most suicides in NZ are patients who are on some antideppresent of one kind or another.

i and others have been activley trying to get more controls on these medications, by lobying mps, its our own future that these drugs are killing, maybe it will take a columbine type mass murder here before something is done, as allways when its too late.

**Edbear** · 17th September 2007, 14:12

Originally Posted by dmouse

we are all raised to trust doctors and allways do as the doc says and take what ever you are given, do they ever get it wrong how do you define mental illness or depression, it comes in many shapes and forms, if you read my story i clearly state that i was not depressed but suffering from PTSD ( post traumatic stress disorder ) i did not need the physcotic medications given to me, these made me deppressed and suicidal, its a well know fact in the USA that most mass murders of late ie columbine high school, these killers were on prescribed anti physcotic meds, one man after taking aropax for less than a week killed his wife daughter son and grand daughter.

these meds affect people in different ways they are mind altering drugs, that are prescribed by GP`s that are not trained to use them, most suicides in NZ are patients who are on some antideppresent of one kind or another.

i and others have been activley trying to get more controls on these medications, by lobying mps, its our own future that these drugs are killing, maybe it will take a columbine type mass murder here before something is done, as allways when its too late.

I have re-read both your previous posts, dmouse and have some experience and knowledge of PTSD. PTSD is related to depression and many with PTSD do suffer depression. Panic attacks are also a common reaction to PTSD. Symptoms can be very similar and treatment is often much the same.

While there has been much in the news of tragedies attributed to medications, one cannot make a clear connection. As you rightly say, medications affect different people differently and this is a genuine problem for GP's and also specialists diagnosing and treating such illnesses. What works for one, may cause a bad reaction in another. Therefore most GP's will recommend a smaller dose for a couple of weeks to monitor the effects before either changing the medication or upping the dose. We can't be certain how the perpetrators of those tragedies were being treated and monitored, or their particular mental state. The news media is rarely calm and objective and sticking to the facts. There is always a slant and a desire for ratings that influences the story.

SSRI medications are intended to address the serotonin levels in the brain so it's not quite accurate to describe them as mind altering drugs. When one does so it tends to imply they are like LSD, or Ecstacy, or dope, which are of a different type. NZ is more regulated and I think less reckless with the prescribing of medications than the US. Most Doctors here seem to be more involved with their patients and try to offer a more complete treatment than simply prescribing drugs and little more. Doctors, like KB'rs are people, human, and while there are some extremely good Doctors whom I would trust with my life, there are others I wouldn't take my cat to! So if one is not confident in one's Dr. don't hesitate to consult another. If one is unsure as to the effects of one's medication, say so! You are not at the mercy of the Doctor and you don't have to take whatever he or she dishes out. It is empowering to take control of your health, do your own study, analyse yourself and communicate with your GP. Listen carefully to him and ask questions.

It is a very complex area of health and no two people are the same, so it's not as simple as, say, a broken leg which is clearly defined and treated a certain way.

You may be surprised to have a careful examination of your own situation and measure yourself against the definitions of depression and PTSD. I am not trying here to counsel or treat anyone in particular, but to offer some insight into the various factors generally so others can read and consider any pertinent information that may apply to their situation.

My main aim, here, is to offer encouragement, to say that it is not hopeless or permanent. One can treat and deal with depression and often it is a big help just to hear that.

**dmouse** · 17th September 2007, 15:02

after my accident in jan 04 i was left for six hours with severe internal bleeding in the corridor of christchurch public hospital, i had cut my spleen in two damaged my liver,bladder punctured lung and broken ribs, my own body attacked and severly damaged my thyroid, i had lost two thirds of my blood internaly, the right equipment to check the damage was not available. now i was a healthy and very fit male of 46yrs i have been on bikes from being a kid, i have even raced semi pro in the uk, and i have had bins but this one was the worst and the only one to put me in hospital, i had never been ill in anyway i now was a mess, i was discharged after eight days stapled from my groin to my chest.
i was readmitted with phnumonia discharged readmitted with a liver infection readmitted with a bladder and uti infection, this is what caused my ptsd it was not depression, i have done a lot of research and there are a lot of documentorys out there on aropax and other drugs, but aropax is one of the worst and the most prescribed drug, shit its even being dished out to kids, go to tvnz channel two 20/20 and watch the aropax doco, i know one of the ladys in the video, she was a singer and after seven doses of ect she cannot remeber the words of any of the songs she used to sing, she only went to the doctor with backpain and was prescribed aropax, it turned out after the birth of a baby she had a collasped uturus. why was she prescribed aropax ? why was i prescribed aropax ?? i was complaining to my gp of pain from my wound, it was like needles sticking in me and constant, i am now addicted to aropax and other drugs that i do or did not need, my pain is from adesions scar tissue from my wound has healed inside against my internal organs so therfore when i move the scar pulls on my internal organs, cant be fixed as im told it will only cause more adesions cant win so i have to live in constant pain i cant kill myself as its seen as a selfish act lol who is being selfish the person who wants out or the people stopping the act it dont figure in my book i dont want to live in constant pain but my so called loved ones would like me to live in pain !!!!!!

**Curious_AJ** · 17th September 2007, 22:58

been a while since i jumped on here...

but all i want to say is GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRAAAAAAAARRRRRRGHHHH!!!!!!!!

**jazbug5** · 18th September 2007, 10:58

Riiiigghhhht. What the f*ck for..?

**Goblin** · 18th September 2007, 11:31

Originally Posted by dmouse

we are all raised to trust doctors and allways do as the doc says and take what ever you are given, do they ever get it wrong how do you define mental illness or depression, it comes in many shapes and forms, if you read my story i clearly state that i was not depressed but suffering from PTSD ( post traumatic stress disorder ) i did not need the physcotic medications given to me, these made me deppressed and suicidal, its a well know fact in the USA that most mass murders of late ie columbine high school, these killers were on prescribed anti physcotic meds, one man after taking aropax for less than a week killed his wife daughter son and grand daughter.

these meds affect people in different ways they are mind altering drugs, that are prescribed by GP`s that are not trained to use them, most suicides in NZ are patients who are on some antideppresent of one kind or another.

i and others have been activley trying to get more controls on these medications, by lobying mps, its our own future that these drugs are killing, maybe it will take a columbine type mass murder here before something is done, as allways when its too late.

Doctors eh. Trouble is it all boils down to $$$$ and the pharmaceutical co's buy their pushers while they're in med school. They get offered holidays and new cars and all sorts of perks to push these drugs. They dont actually give a rodents rectum about peoples health. Little people cant fight the big pharmaceutical co's because we dont have enough money to pay for the team of lawyers it would take to win.

Would not be surprised if the company that makes food additives and flavours that hype children up, make the drugs they give kids with "ADHD".