Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[idleidolidyll]

hasn't drive wages down... but my wages has kept up with inflation ... and yes the price of houses hasn't helped...

real income today is way behind the real income of 20-30 years ago.

how many ordinary middle class families today could raise 5 children on one ordinary wage?

even the same jobs have barely increased in absolute terms, as a salesman in the mid eighties I earned about $80k a year. I recently inquired into the same work in the same industry and discovered that the typical remuneration had dropped to $60-70K.

As a motorcycle salesman in 1987 I earned about the same. What does a motorcycle salesman earn today?

[scumdog]

Ah well, me & NightHawk wil just have to suffer our 'ever decreasing wages' as we fritter away our money while riding bikes, going overseas and buying expensive toys and properties I guess.......

I'm just a pleb who is unaware of the 'bigger picture' and just wants to enjoy what he has.

The worrying I will leave to the likes of you.

[Robert Taylor]

good grief what nonsense!

"''world owes me a living'' attitude that socialism perpetuates" hilarious seeing the usual fallacies instead of rational debate. It shows the opposition have nothing but childish propaganda.
personal observations indicate to me that capitalists are every bit as likely to have that very same attitude.

That's typical Yank propaganda though and I'm not surprised the right wingers here suck it down so easily; they seem to lack the skill to investigate deeper than the propaganda level.

Yes, some of those socialist countries have high tax rates indeed and Denmark is said to be the highest at close to 50% flat. However, despite those tax rates, the people self report as extremely happy and contented and the countries themselves regularly top the charts for all worthwhile quality of life indicators.

The right wing focus on tax is nothing but a smoke screen designed to remove all state support and place it in the hands of private industry where it will be served up with a big spoon of propaganda and ever inflating costs.

Past US governments used tax cuts to destroy social welfare and state funding to such an extent that it was 'deemed' impossible to do anything but place it in the hands of corporations. Now they have creationism being taught as science, 40 million people without adequate health care, a dumbed down population scared to speak in public and a leader close to declaring a black flag state of emergency and crowning himself emperor.

If that's the model you want to live under, I suggest you go to Yankland and live the nightmare for a while. That's NOT what makes NZ a great place to live, that's what will destroy NZ.

I think that you are clearly reading propaganda yourself, it is not too late for you to learn a wider perspective. BTW, going to the States next week. The biggest problem there is as a New Zealander I will be treated like a leper through immigration BECAUSE of Helen Clark. And btw, have you been to Sweden recently and spoken to everyday folk there?

Maybe you should spend more time getting out in the real world and put down that copy of ''The life and times of Chairman Mao'' I have no doubt that you are a likable fellow and that I could readily have a beer with you but man you have got some serious lefty issues!

[MisterD]

how many ordinary middle class families today could raise 5 children on one ordinary wage?

At the rate we have to fund Labour's social engineering policies, not many...plus people didn't used to think that takeaways, the latest fashions and plasma TV's were essential to their existences.

How many people make (or even mend) their own clothes or grow their own veggies these days? Generation Y don't even seem to know how to cook a meal from basic ingredients

[terbang]

Maybe you should spend more time getting out in the real world and put down that

Careful there. You often find that the more traveled people are, the more left they tend to be.

[Robert Taylor]

Careful there. You often find that the more traveled people are, the more left they tend to be.

Then as a prolific world traveller why am I right?

[James Deuce]

Then as a prolific world traveller why am I right?

So few words that say soooo much.....

[terbang]

Then as a prolific world traveller why am I right?

Tourist or ex patriot?

[Finn]

good grief what nonsense!

"''world owes me a living'' attitude that socialism perpetuates" hilarious seeing the usual fallacies instead of rational debate. It shows the opposition have nothing but childish propaganda.
personal observations indicate to me that capitalists are every bit as likely to have that very same attitude.

That's typical Yank propaganda though and I'm not surprised the right wingers here suck it down so easily; they seem to lack the skill to investigate deeper than the propaganda level.

Yes, some of those socialist countries have high tax rates indeed and Denmark is said to be the highest at close to 50% flat. However, despite those tax rates, the people self report as extremely happy and contented and the countries themselves regularly top the charts for all worthwhile quality of life indicators.

The right wing focus on tax is nothing but a smoke screen designed to remove all state support and place it in the hands of private industry where it will be served up with a big spoon of propaganda and ever inflating costs.

Past US governments used tax cuts to destroy social welfare and state funding to such an extent that it was 'deemed' impossible to do anything but place it in the hands of corporations. Now they have creationism being taught as science, 40 million people without adequate health care, a dumbed down population scared to speak in public and a leader close to declaring a black flag state of emergency and crowning himself emperor.

If that's the model you want to live under, I suggest you go to Yankland and live the nightmare for a while. That's NOT what makes NZ a great place to live, that's what will destroy NZ.

Mate, what in life have you failed at so dismally that you have such an adverse feeling towards mankind and prosperity? I'm serious... you can tell Uncle Finn.

[idleidolidyll]

At the rate we have to fund Labour's social engineering policies, not many...

yawn, right wing economic policies over the last 20+ years has FAR more to do with our drop in real income than social policies.

what really makes me laugh is when the nutters from the right actually start to OFFER their suggested policies: it soon becomes apparent that THEIR versions of religion, belief and social structure are all more than likely to lead to increasing reduction of choice, equanimity, tolerance and humanitarianism.

In their place we will see growing racism, intolerance, abuse of the powerless, foreign ownership and adoption of truly odious policies 'suggested' by those who will fund them from afar.

[idleidolidyll]

Ah well, me & NightHawk wil just have to suffer our 'ever decreasing wages' as we fritter away our money while riding bikes, going overseas and buying expensive toys and properties I guess.......

I'm just a pleb who is unaware of the 'bigger picture' and just wants to enjoy what he has.

The worrying I will leave to the likes of you.

you're a cop aint ya?

obviously your idea of a good income and mine are somewhat at odds

[idleidolidyll]

I think that you are clearly reading propaganda yourself, it is not too late for you to learn a wider perspective. BTW, going to the States next week. The biggest problem there is as a New Zealander I will be treated like a leper through immigration BECAUSE of Helen Clark. And btw, have you been to Sweden recently and spoken to everyday folk there?

Maybe you should spend more time getting out in the real world and put down that copy of ''The life and times of Chairman Mao'' I have no doubt that you are a likable fellow and that I could readily have a beer with you but man you have got some serious lefty issues!

No Robert, you will be treated as a leper because you're a 'foreigner': Yanks are incredibly ethnocentric and paranoid. It has fuck all to do with Clark and as you stand in line for three hours holding your shoes in your hand, think about NZ becoming a clone of that ugly nation feeding off the blood of the poor and powerless as their wealthy lord it over their ordinary citizens. BTW: Don't argue with anyone, they might just shoot you.

I've been to Amerika (I lived in Canada after all) and I was totally underwhelmed.

I've been out in the real world most of my life, not closetted behind NZ's walls and it's western propaganda. I speak Chinese and have lived around a third of my life in other countries. Having worked in an industry beholden to the capitalist world and having had to work inside the capitalist behemouth in order to succeed in international trade, I am very aware of what goes on behind the scnes from a first hand basis......unlike an awful lot of Kiwis who see through really cloudy glasses.

Tell ya what, after YOU'VE had face to face meetings with the likes of Tommy Suharto, Chinese bureaucracy etc etc, you phone me and tell me I don't have a realistic perspective of how capitalism operates around the world. Until then I suggest it's YOU who doesn't have a grip on the reality of the way the world is manipulated.

Sweden?, No, not for a long time but I have a Swedish friend and his wife who come to NZ every year; is that enough?

[idleidolidyll]

Careful there. You often find that the more traveled people are, the more left they tend to be.

that's something i've noticed; it's because they awaken from their propaganda induced stupor to see the atrocities capitalism has heaped upon the world and the effects it has had on our fellow human beings.

[idleidolidyll]

Then as a prolific world traveller why am I right?

you're not so in my humble opinion, you're a world traveler with his eyes closed

[idleidolidyll]

Mate, what in life have you failed at so dismally that you have such an adverse feeling towards mankind and prosperity? I'm serious... you can tell Uncle Finn.

actually i've succeeded in almost everything i've done and i have a very positive attitude toward humanity: that's why i'm so disgusted at the likes of Bush and his ilk bent on the destruction of humanity/society in order to profit personally

tell me finn, what makes you so ignorant?