Wire (cheese cutter) barriers

[jahrasti]

Cheese cutters can be retrofitted to make them safer, which is what countries that have them fitted are starting to do they see they are not the be all and end all.
They are also very expensive to maintain and Deano was right as concrete is cheaper in the long run.

I used to have heaps of info on them from when I was in civil engineering but my computer shit itself and I think it has gone.

The trouble is all the testing doesn't usually involve motorbikes.

[raster]

I like the idea of pouring the concrete over the top of them, then you have reinforced concrete barriers.

[saltydog]

I'm just glad I dont live anywhere near the bloody things!
CHEESE GRATERS ARE NOT THE GO. At least we have a chance to slide down a concrete barrier no?!

[Chrislost]

Motorcycling safety consultant Allan Kirk told the Herald that although there might be some stretches of road where wire could be justified because of limited space, notably the narrow coastal highway north of Wellington, it was "utterly unforgivable" of Transit to install these where there was enough room for steel barriers.

Thats form the herald site.
by steel barriers i hope he does not mean armco!
whatever they put in needs to extend from the ground up and not have holes in.

[Ixion]

I have just been contacted by 'phone by Matthew Dearnley of the NZ Herald. They are planning a followup tomorrow. I have plugged the "if they can't be removed, then make them safe, as they are doing in Europe" line with him. He intimates that Transit's position is that maybe they do kill motorcyclists , but they save a greater number of cagers than they kill bikers, so it's all good.

BTW, he is trying to get hold of Zapf and Draco, so if either of you see this could you give him a call please.

I've told him I'll send him the FEMA links, and the one from Mr Fub@r.

It appears he has also been contacted by a gentleman (he mentioned the name but I had to agree not to divulge it publicly - PM me if you think it may be relevant) who claims to have knowledge of the recent tragedy, and claims that "it was all due to excessive speed". So I thinki that may become an unpleasant sub motif.

EDIT: I am taking my position as

A safety barrier should not make roads safer for some road users at the expense of increased danger to other road users. Safety barriers should be designed, and can be, to make the roads safer for ALL road users.

EDITY EDIT:

The gentleman mentioned above is this one

Anonymous
According to TV3 News, police estimate this young man was traveling at 150KPH. The death is a tragedy for the victim and his family. But I'm fed up with motorcyclists who think they can operate outside the law. To those who are now grumbling about the safety of median barriers - how about focusing on your own safety and the cars around you. How about sticking to the speed limit. How about showing some responsibility instead of demanding that motorways be turned into drag strips. I'm quite happy with the present arrangement. If motorcyclists don't like the wire barrier, slow down or speed somewhere else.

[candor]

More barriers are critical to prevent serious crashes - they're the number 1 way the safest countries for road users have blitzed their toll. And also the most potent intervention we have at our fingertips given our high head ons.

But the barriers should be as safe as they can be. Accepting grotesque collateral damage being visited on a few to save the many justified just for initial cost savings (saving $30 a metre but higher ongoing maintenance) has to be a false economy.

To my mind the strongest case you can all put is one based on wire ropes being a false economy using hard data - and presenting the options with solid figures for how effective they'd be for all road users.

Push the truck angle I reckon. If wire ropes don't stop trucks that is important to cagers because trucks are projected to increase their vehicle K's significantly in the next decade. See RTF website or other truck websites for details.
And trucks are involved in more than their share of crashes versus trucks in other countries (even if not at fault quite as often as cagers - they nearly as often are though).

Making it about cost effectiveness and meeting the set road toll goals (which cover all road users) with a non emotive argument, one that does not make bikers look like they are not aware of other road users safety needs seems important.

To me that implies that merely saying get rid of the cheese cutters doesn't cut it. In the numbers game they are doing their job - saving lives overall. You have to seek and present viable options in both a cost and road safety sense,as it appears the European bikers are well ahead on doing.

Also as they note progress takes time as Institutions move slow. It is a matter of convincing many key people in Govt Departments where road safety is concerned, politicians etc generally just graze and have short attntion spans so can't be relied on to take up the cause.

Transit does its own research but I know that if you can find better or produce new info or analyses then a presentation to the key policy people may be worthwhile as a start.

The immediate need right now I agree with some other posters on this thread is to get any current wire barriers to both comply with standards for set backs and to be covered with protective barriers as they are elsewhere.

BTW you can't sue for negligence causing death in NZ under public law if the dead party was not an Individual the Government knew of and knew they were placing at risk eg by putting barriers in without correct set back.
Companies can get sued under OSH for killing employees but Govt can kill us anytime it likes - that's what's truly special about NZ!

The Sensible Sentencing Trust case against the Parole Board for it's negligence on behalf of the RSA victims is trying to set a precedent to change that. We can't kill through stupidity ='s manslaughter. But isn't that what happened to the poor victim. Uncovered barrier without right setback encountered AFTER concerns already raised. It is criminal. A bit of a rant soz but hope I included some useful info. in there.

PS - regarding blaming the victim for speeding. So noxious - maybe squeeze in at interview rejoinders to BS eg say that civilised countries don't ask what caused the problem as it can be a range of things often not your fault eg tyre blowouts (as noted already) - so look instead to solve or mitigate the problem. Mistakes shouldn't equal deserve death.

[Skyryder]

I think this issue needs to be treated like a proper PR campaign. While it’s great that individual people are looking at applying pressure, there does need to be a strategic, centralised approach if it’s to work.

Develop a strategic plan that outlines your objectives and the tactics that will be used to achieve them. This could include:

* Develop key messages for use in all communication on the issue (ie. the three or four things you want to say)
* Arm yourself with lots of credible research that supports your case.
* Appoint a spokesperson who is knowledgeable, articulate and who handles all media contact and becomes the face of the campaign
* Develop a programme of engaging the media
* Identify well known, trusted people who ride and can endorse the cause (the media will be keen to interview them and it will increase coverage). If they’re good sorts, they’ll do it for free.
* Identify which Minister/s to target. Embarrassing them into action is likely to be less effective than finding a way that will make them look good if they do. Everyone wants to be the Minister that Saves Lives!

Listen to this man. He knows what it's about.

Skyryder

[candor]

Anon at the Herald site is prolly a paid Govt damage control agent.

[monica]

Please give us plenty of notice if some-one does organise a ride in protest. Lets face facts one person can not make a difference but united we can possible do. Monica

[kitsune]

I for one am very keen for us to get together and grind the CBD of auckland to a halt with our bikes to make our selfs known to the bastards, seeing that guy go though such a horrific accident made me think of firstly myself, being new to the big bikes, my mate who is new to biking period and my other mate who travels on that stretch daily. Secondly we have a problem in nz where we have a lot of plastics that cant be recycled due to lack of facility, the idea of putting plastic cladding / covers on those death traps is a great idea, im not an engineer but wouldn't a honeycomb inner with a shredded / gratted outer core take more speed out of anyone hitting the barrier with relitivly low manufacture costs?. Being the honeycomb underneath would crush and dent - less blunt impact of hitting say naked concrete, and the outer layer to slow the rider down ,as if im not mistaken a slightly corse outer layer to reduce speed , and if your wearing correct safety gear / armor will slow you down a lot faster a, better yet have no concern for a car hitting the same area , where it will simply loose some paint. The idea i envisage they would come in pre-fabricated blocks and a simple ether slide n lock system or a glue style , better yet they could be used on other barrier types , that are while better then cheese cutters could be improved upon. Then bam 2 problems solved at once safer roads, and plastics are recycled. Which we (as a country) might even be able to push towards the kyoto agreement. I will be talking with my uncle in the next day or so , who has about 30 odd years in engineering and see if he can give me some ideas, see if i can get some sort of proposal together. And for the idea of slowing down when around those things i fucking love it, wouldn't be able to do it safely on your own due to some cager likely to try n overtake / knock you off, but if done as a group could be a nice protest. The other idea of knocking the barriers down would be good in the short term but could ultimately lead to more fatalities. Thats my 2 cents anyhow, Keep it safe out there guys.

[Brett]

I think this issue needs to be treated like a proper PR campaign. While it’s great that individual people are looking at applying pressure, there does need to be a strategic, centralised approach if it’s to work.

Develop a strategic plan that outlines your objectives and the tactics that will be used to achieve them. This could include:

* Develop key messages for use in all communication on the issue (ie. the three or four things you want to say)
* Arm yourself with lots of credible research that supports your case.
* Appoint a spokesperson who is knowledgeable, articulate and who handles all media contact and becomes the face of the campaign
* Develop a programme of engaging the media
* Identify well known, trusted people who ride and can endorse the cause (the media will be keen to interview them and it will increase coverage). If they’re good sorts, they’ll do it for free.
* Identify which Minister/s to target. Embarrassing them into action is likely to be less effective than finding a way that will make them look good if they do. Everyone wants to be the Minister that Saves Lives!

Brilliant advice and I think it should be the foundations of anything we decide to do. A good start would be the best person to face the campaign, I would be inclined to vote Ixion if he is willing, otherwise open to ideas.

[cold comfort]

have watched these appearing randomly in my district with anger and apprehension- contacted local BRONZ last night. Its on their agenda for next meeting. Lets hope this latest unnecessary death is a catalyst for change!

[DEATH_INC.]

BTW, he is trying to get hold of Zapf and Draco, so if either of you see this could you give him a call please.

Done, We have contacted him.

[R6_kid:Me]

There are a few videos of MotoGP/Superbikes lowsiding at 200kmh+ with the rider getting up and walking away unscathed. The message needs to be that it is the cheese cutter that is doing the damage.

One idea to get the word out is to send and email with a decent message protesting the barriers. Then after the message you add your name and send it on to the next person, every 100th person sends the email to the responsible person at LTSA, and the person organising the emial, as far as I am aware it is an official form of petition, which brings me to my next point.

Petition - I'm sure there are enough of us around the country with a couple of hours spare on the weekends to hang out at malls/shopping centres/bike shops etc, to gather up signatures to build support against the barriers. There may be a certain number we need to reach, but I'm sure it can be done.

[DEATH_INC.]

To me that implies that merely saying get rid of the cheese cutters doesn't cut it. In the numbers game they are doing their job - saving lives overall. You have to seek and present viable options in both a cost and road safety sense,as it appears the European bikers are well ahead on doing.

Yes, this is a good point, we don't neccessaraly want them removed, making them safe for us is what we are after. Asking / demanding they be removed will not work, they DO do the job they were put there for, we just want them safe for ALL road users. And this replies to all barriers, not just the cheese cutters.