Robert Taylor and idleidolidyll's political debating thread

[Grahameeboy]

1. Finland

2. Iceland

3. Norway

4. Sweden

5. Austria

Take your pick. Look forward to the postcard.

[davereid]

The danger is that free trade effectively puts every job in NZ into competition with every labourer in the world regardless of whether their country has free trade or not. This creates a race to the bottom where manufacturing relies more and more on driving down wages to retain competitiveness with the likes of China, Thailand etc where wages are less than a dollar an hour. Neither of those nations have free trade the way NZ does and we are effectively exporting our businesses and our jobs.
If we are to have a free trade policy, then wage protection is absolutely necessary.

Sadly we cannot just trade within our own borders and be viable. As nice an idea as it sounds, without external trade, we lose. Large economies can manage this trick. If I make a widget in the EU, there are hundreds of millions of potential customers within 2hrs freight on the train. Make it in Wellington, it had better be pretty popular, or so badly made that you need a new one every week, or soon I'm out of business.

Tarrifs create the illusion of solving this problem. Manufacturers love them, as they are effectively a tax, collected by the manufacturer. Tarrifs made Todd Motors and the protected motor trade suppliers very rich, at the expense of the motorist who had to wait for a badly made Hillman to be delivered.

Tarrifs also destroy your ability to compete. While you can say in business, and make a very good profit thank you, you can't export. As your product is just too expensive.

So what works ?

Productivity is a least pert of the answer. But to be more productive I need access to a larger market, and I have to be price competitive.

So, when a wage rise for my electronic assemblers comes along, I have a few options. I can pay it, hope they work harder and produce more. I can replace them, either by getting the manufacturing done in Singapore, or by getting a pick and place machine.

I actually have another option too. I can buy 4 pick and place machines and upskill my 4 assemblers to run them. Thats a serious producivity boost.

Thats actually the preferred option. But it puts the cart before the horse. I haven't yet got the orders. So no point making inventory.

The most important person in the loop isn't the Managing Director. Its not the software engineer, the shop steward or the chick in accounts with the big hooters.

Its the customer. Only by meeting his needs with regard to price, quality, and performance will business and incomes grow.

[steveb64]

Anyone here had the thought re China that maybe the cheap labour rate is a part of their master plan to wage economic warfare on the US (and most of the rest of the western world also...)?
Seems like their trick of keeping the Chinese currency exchange rate so low against the US is giving them the ability to build up HUGE stockpiles of surplus $US cash - which they are using to: Push up the oil prices, buy up US and other industries, buy up western manufacturing plants, dismantle them, and relocate them to China - where they can then help the Chinese economic plan (by producing even more cheap stuff), and generally force more and more western manufacturers to relocate their manufacturing facilities to China.

What happens if the US decides to take on Iran (and/or Nth Korea) - and while they are in the middle of that - China moves in on Taiwan? And shuts down ALL exports? Who's gonna make the stuff then? NO MORE PEANUT BUTTER! Bugger.

Then there's the pollution (airborne particulates) drift across the pacific (to the US), which reduces solar energy driven evaporation, which causes there to be less moisture in the atmosphere - leading to drought in the landmass downwind (US)... Link to article (about dust drift, but valid for airborne particulates) : http://www.space.com/scienceastronom...rm_010514.html

And they're building high pollutant coal fired power plants at an ever increasing rate...

Hmmm - what's the thoughts on this one?

[imdying]

Then there's the pollution (airborne particulates) drift across the pacific (to the US), which reduces solar energy driven evaporation, which causes there to be less moisture in the atmosphere - leading to drought in the landmass downwind (US)...

OH NOES!!! THE CHINESE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CALIFORNIAN SUPER FIRES!!!

[scumdog]

The danger is that free trade effectively puts every job in NZ into competition with every labourer in the world regardless of whether their country has free trade or not.
This creates a race to the bottom where manufacturing relies more and more on driving down wages to retain competitiveness with the likes of China, Thailand etc where wages are less than a dollar an hour. Neither of those nations have free trade the way NZ does and we are effectively exporting our businesses and our jobs.
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I agree.

To extrapolate this to the max, unless soemthing in th eworld changes (and it will) in 50 years the world would have the same level of income and standard of living evrywhere.

At the moment places like Chine etc are enjoying a slowly increased level of income for the individuals -at the expense of NZ manufacturers who cannot compete with products manufactured overseas at 3rd world labour costs.

We get cheap T-shirts from them, we also get less opportunity for manufacturers here to be viable while paying our hourly rate levels.

ergo the worker won't earn much but he will be able to pay for the imported T-shirt!!

[idleidolidyll]

Not that I actually see much wrong with "An economic system in which trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit."

As thats actually the only reason we do anything. For pay, profit, reward.
Be it cash, or the reward of helping others, its our primary motivation in life.

Humans are the only animals that can be altruistic: some of us have greater motivation than ME FIRST

I gladly pay taxes so that less fortunate people have a chance in life.

Yes the battle of the dictionary...

How about "SOCIALISIM (In Marxist theory) a transitional stage in the development of a society from capitalisim to communisim..." (New Collins english dictionary.)

Finally. Yes, that is indeed what Marx said and you'll note that it is neither communism nor capitalism but something between: exactly as I have been saying.
However, as a transitional state, it could be moving either way or stay as it is. On a double continuum for right/left and authoritarianism/liberalism, socialism is liberal left, communism is authoritarian left and capitalism is authoritarian right.

Are you finally getting it? communism is not socialism, there is a fundamental difference.

[davereid]

I have never said that socialists are communists !

I have said that they both are systems that absolutely rely on resources extracted from unwilling suppliers by force.

[idleidolidyll]

Absolutely tax IS taken by force. Just try resist paying it. Resist the man in the grey suit, he will send one in a blue suit carrying a stick. Resist him, and he will send 10 men in black suits, carrying guns.

the words you used were "by gun point".
in fact it is taken through the will of the people for moneys to be set aside to assist in infrastructure and welfare.

Interestingly a poll released today asked Kiwis if they wanted the $2.6 billion surplus spent on tax cuts or on social policies. 48% wanted it spent on social policies and 35% wanted it spent on tax cuts. 12% wanted it spent on both and the rest didn't answer.
Twice as many people with a tertiary qualification or higher wanted the money spent on social policies.

So it seems Kiwis are smarter than John Keys gives them credit; they can see through the bullshit of tax cuts to the damage it can do to society.

Personally I'd have said spend it on neither, instead invest it in our superannuation fund.....................oops, isn't that social spending? (no, it's social investment)

taxes are almost always preferably to liberal economic policies because capitalists given that much freedom always tend toward abuse and self serving greed.

[idleidolidyll]

I have never said that socialists are communists !

I have said that they both are systems that absolutely rely on resources extracted from unwilling suppliers by force.

no, you haven't but you HAVE assigned communist ideology and action to socialism which is pretty much the same thing without using the word itself.

propaganda is always propaganda.

socialism does not exist under dictators, the very fact of a dictatorship indicates that socialism (people power) does not exist. The abuses you assign to socialism committed by the communist governments of the soviets and chinese are bollocks because these were committed under oligarchies and dictatorships. Likewise assignment of Hitlers slaughter of Jews: Hitler was a fascist dictator not a socialist and only suckers believe words over actions.

[davereid]

Socialisim doesnt exist under dictators beause as soon as they become dictators, you say they arent socialists anymore.

But it doesn't alter the fact that socialisim requires force to exist. If it only required voluntary agreements, then its not socialisim any more either.

[idleidolidyll]

Sadly we cannot just trade within our own borders and be viable. As nice an idea as it sounds, without external trade, we lose.

A straw man argument? That's pretty boring, I NEVER said we should only trade inside NZ.

Large economies can manage this trick. If I make a widget in the EU, there are hundreds of millions of potential customers within 2hrs freight on the train. Make it in Wellington, it had better be pretty popular, or so badly made that you need a new one every week, or soon I'm out of business.

Who cares what your answer to your own straw man is? I never made such an argument.

Tarrifs create the illusion of solving this problem. Manufacturers love them, as they are effectively a tax, collected by the manufacturer. Tarrifs made Todd Motors and the protected motor trade suppliers very rich, at the expense of the motorist who had to wait for a badly made Hillman to be delivered.

It's not about absolutes, that's a meaningless debate. There must be a balance and as I wrote earlier, to have free trade where NZ manufacturing workers must compete with workers in Asia directly will always result in steady reductions in wages unless safeguards like minimum wages are fixed to prevent it.

Tarrifs also destroy your ability to compete. While you can say in business, and make a very good profit thank you, you can't export. As your product is just too expensive.

So what? If your manufacturing depends on competition between cheap Asian workers fighting Kiwis for their hourly wages, it's of fuck all benefit to the country and we are better off dumping it in favour of something that benefits Kiwis.
I never want to compete on a non level playing field for wages, that's just plain stupid. Far better than manufacturers find a competitive edge in research and processes rather than by driving down wages.

So what works ?

Productivity is a least pert of the answer. But to be more productive I need access to a larger market, and I have to be price competitive.

We've been over this before. You say you hire unskilled low wage workers and I say to improve productivity we need upskilled workers and more investment in that training as well as R&D.

So, when a wage rise for my electronic assemblers comes along, I have a few options. I can pay it, hope they work harder and produce more. I can replace them, either by getting the manufacturing done in Singapore, or by getting a pick and place machine.

As far as the good of the country is concerned, the wealthy can pretty much look after themselves in almost every circumstance. The poor often cannot and that is and should be the main focus of Government: doing what is best for most people.
But thanks for emphasising my point about competing on wages alone by using the threat of manufacture in Asia. If that's all you've got as your 'edge (wages), I reckon we don't need you.

I actually have another option too. I can buy 4 pick and place machines and upskill my 4 assemblers to run them. Thats a serious producivity boost.

Now there ya go, invest in training and increase productivity WITHOUT competing against China (or Singapore) for wages.

Thats actually the preferred option. But it puts the cart before the horse. I haven't yet got the orders. So no point making inventory.

The most important person in the loop isn't the Managing Director. Its not the software engineer, the shop steward or the chick in accounts with the big hooters.

Its the customer. Only by meeting his needs with regard to price, quality, and performance will business and incomes grow.

No, the most important people in any country's loop are the people of the country, other country's people come second.

[idleidolidyll]

Socialisim doesnt exist under dictators beause as soon as they become dictators, you say they arent socialists anymore.

But it doesn't alter the fact that socialisim requires force to exist. If it only required voluntary agreements, then its not socialisim any more either.

There was never such a 'fact' to alter; just propaganda.
No, socialism doesn't require force to exist, that's the point. Socialism is a system that gives power to the people collectively, it only needs a normal police force and judiciary to ensure that the laws of the nation are policed just as EVERY politicval system does. The most abusive will always be the system where the least amount of people have the most power: authoritarianism first, capitalism second.

BTW: collective voluntary agreements ARE socialism, the people decide what they want as a group and those who feel disaffected by the sharing of power (capitalists, fascists etc), will always try to disrupt and derail socialism. A police force is necessary to ensure laws are upheld.

[davereid]

So we tarrif to protect jobs.

This means our workers have a job, at a good wage. But its not much use to them. They pay $40 for a $5 T shirt. They can't get an unprotected job, because all the employers have shut there doors and are getting the widget made in Singapore. (And leaving the profits there, as taxes are lower).

And somehow we just can't seem to keep inflation under control, so any money we have loses value.

And exactly how will we find "an edge" as you say ? We are no brighter, no harder working or closer to markets or resources than many of our competitors, so this edge is a bit tricky. Easy for Norway with oil, or Aussie with minerals or Finland with massive forestry resources rght next to major markets.

Not so easy for us.

And yes, productivity needs a few things. It needs upskilling of workers, completely agree with you. But it also needs someone to buy the extra prduction, and money to fund the growth. Both of which get short in locked up economies.

I'd really like it if it was that easy, all we needed to do was close our borders to trade, and pick a wage we would like.

But the world won't care.

[davereid]

There was never such a 'fact' to alter; just propaganda.
No, socialism doesn't require force to exist, that's the point. Socialism is a system that gives power to the people collectively, it only needs a normal police force and judiciary to ensure that the laws of the nation are policed just as EVERY politicval system does. The most abusive will always be the system where the least amount of people have the most power: authoritarianism first, capitalism second.

BTW: collective voluntary agreements ARE socialism, the people decide what they want as a group and those who feel disaffected by the sharing of power (capitalists, fascists etc), will always try to disrupt and derail socialism. A police force is necessary to ensure laws are upheld.

No, sorry complete garbage. Your chosen system cannot exist unless it gives itself the power to take the property and incomes of others away against their will.

A majority does not give you that right, anymore than it gave the religious majority the right to torture denyers or burn witches.

Crossing the line to a system that requires violence to exist puts you in the wrong. Even if you get 100% of the vote.

[Hitcher]

Whereabouts in the world does "socialism", as a form of government freely chosen by the population of that country, exist?