Kill the Bill

[devnull]

The opposition to the Electoral Finance Bill is being driven by the same people that opposed Bradfords 'Smacking Bill.' They are on a fast learning curve and have not come out openly as they did with their opposition to Bradford's bill. The essence of the bill is that the political parties formulate policy on the basis that the people can choose which party they think is the best to govern in their interests without any undue influence from outsiders due to political donations.

I know many don't like Nicky Hagar but a read of the Hollow Men will give some understanding of how the far right influence National Party politics.

Skyryder

You're kidding right?

80% of people opposed Bradford's bill. Over the last 12 months, a record number of people have voted with their feet and left NZ.

This current bill is gagging free speech, which is why people are getting pissed off. We want to live in a democracy - not just use a democratic electoral process once every 3 years.

The whole left-wing bullshit spin on everything is getting ridiculous, from crime rates spiraling out of control, skilled workers queuing up to leave, to exploding welfare dependency... there always seems to be some form of "aren't we doing well, the arguments against us are all wrong" message.

[Skyryder]

You're kidding right?

80% of people opposed Bradford's bill. Over the last 12 months, a record number of people have voted with their feet and left NZ.

This current bill is gagging free speech, which is why people are getting pissed off. We want to live in a democracy - not just use a democratic electoral process once every 3 years.

The whole left-wing bullshit spin on everything is getting ridiculous, from crime rates spiraling out of control, skilled workers queuing up to leave, to exploding welfare dependency... there always seems to be some form of "aren't we doing well, the arguments against us are all wrong" message.

Yep and those that opposed Bradford's Bill had no idea what it was about. That misconception was driven by the new right. The current bill does not gag free speech as you say. This is another misconception that is being promoted. There are some 'valid' concerns I admit that but it has nothing to do with free speech and those that promote this idea are politicly driven in their opposition to the bill or have no idea what the bill is about.

You bring other arguments into your post that are not relevent to the Bill.

Either start a new topic or bone up on what you are about.

Skyyrder

[Finn]

I know many don't like Nicky Hagar but a read of the Hollow Men will give some understanding of how the far right influence National Party politics.

Skyryder

Well of course they do. Just like all the losers and deadbeats that influence Labour's.

It's nothing new Skyryder, it's just that the right are generally successful and have money to spend to support their ideas whereas Labour and their supporters have to break the law and steal.

However, this bill won't be the reason Labour lose the next election. I think that finally, the indoctrinated masses have had enough.

[Skyryder]

Well of course they do. Just like all the losers and deadbeats that influence Labour's.

It's nothing new Skyryder, it's just that the right are generally successful and have money to spend to support their ideas whereas Labour and their supporters have to break the law and steal.

However, this bill won't be the reason Labour lose the next election. I think that finally, the indoctrinated masses have had enough.

Well I suppose by your reference to breaking the law and stealing you are referring to the election spending on the last election. This is typical of the selective references that those that espouse your views take when denigrating Labour. The only Party that did not break the law on this issue was the Progressives. In other words National was as guilty as Labour on this and to suggest otherwise as you have done does your credibility no service at all. It's just that the amount was different. But as your rightly say stealing is stealing. Of course indoctrination only applies to the left. Lies and bullshit is the province of the right. They just need to spend the money to make it all more sophisticated and look like the truth.

Skyrder

[devnull]

Yep and those that opposed Bradford's Bill had no idea what it was about. That misconception was driven by the new right. The current bill does not gag free speech as you say. This is another misconception that is being promoted. There are some 'valid' concerns I admit that but it has nothing to do with free speech and those that promote this idea are politicly driven in their opposition to the bill or have no idea what the bill is about.

You bring other arguments into your post that are not relevent to the Bill.

Either start a new topic or bone up on what you are about.

Skyyrder

What misconception? It was, and still is, a crap bill. Have you read it? I have, and so did many others.

Lets look at the Electoral Finance Bill and how the Labour pledge card would be treated.....

It would be a lawful use of parliamentary funds, and not allowed to be scrutinised by the Chief Electoral Officer or the Electoral Commission.

It expressly exempts "any publications that relate to a member of Parliament in his or her capacity as a member of Parliament" from being counted as an election expense.

Sitting MPs will have a huge advantage over non-parliamentary parties and candidates. The immunity on their spending runs for the entire three years of an election cycle. Their opponents have restrictions placed on their advertising from January 1 of election year.

[Mr Merde]

As with all political discussions on this site I have been following this one and have once again come to the same conclussion.

Does it really matter what we think, say or do?

When it comes down to it we are, once every 3 years or so, thrown a bone that allows us the illusion that we have some sort of say in how we are governed. Once that period is over, and no matter who finishes up "in Power", the ruling party goes on to do exactly what it feels it should so as to enable them to retain the control they have just grabbed.

We can protest, petition, criticise and harangue our "elected" (what a joke) representatives as much as we like and they will only play lip service to us unless it serves their purpose, their personal objectives.

The government has been taking monies from its populace for decades as it likes and there is no accountability to us for it. They lie, cheat, mislead and generally defraud the said populace and then if caught they use the same monies to defend themselves.

Our civil service is a law unto itself and again not answerable to the populace in any way. Most of it is a self perpetuating mass of seething corruption and jealously guards any semblence of control it thinks it has.

If i sound bitter it is because I am. I am tired of being lied to, tired of having over half of my earnings ripped off by a corrupt system and receiving no benifit back for that which has been appropriated. I am tired of being treated as a child and incapable of making a decision and to my lifestyle, belief system and welbeing. I am tired of constantly being told i am wrong because someone else has decided they know whats best for me. I am tired of supporting an oligraphy that only just hides its contempt for me. I am tired of feeling like a criminal everytime I venture out of the confines of my own home. I am tired of the invasion that local governments have made into my affairs.

I am tired. I am angry and I have just about had enough.

When I came back to NZ 4 years ago I was supprised to hear a lot of people talk about "come the revolution". Now I understand it and feel that it has been a long time comming. Not a violent revolution but one in the wayt we allow people to dominate us and subdue us.

It is a pipe dream really because from what I have relearned since comming home is that the average New Zealander is about as dominant and outgoing as those sheep they are so veryu proud of raising.


Rant over.


Merde

[devnull]

Well said Merde.... so true

[SPman]

Perhaps they should all read this

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4272851a1861.html

The idea to make all donations above board and open is good, but, as usual, the people who write the legislation up, couldn't write the recipe for a glass of water in coherent english, so, as usual, it's a total cockup!
I agree with Mr Merde. All governments want a docile populace, so they can do what they will, and NZ is one of the more docile around!

[Mr Merde]

Perhaps they should all read this

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4272851a1861.html

A more polite way of what I have been trying to say.

It would be wonderful if more people thought this way and actually behaved like this.

Endless debate, with no resolution or even an expectation of a resolution in sight, becomes very mind numbing. maybe this is the overall plan. Make us so apathetic and catatonic that we dont notice the gradual removal of everything that makes life interesting and rewarding then those who have fostered this can do as they please.

I have an inherant mistrust of anyone who professes to know whats best for me and mine.

Merde

[avgas]

Exactly, only chaos can clean the land now

[Phil W]

Can someone please tell me what policies make Labor a left wing party? There is no left wing party in NZ. Mostly center right with a smattering of far right. The only difference is the branding.

Best outcome for a Marxist,
Republican victory in next US elections.
Conservative win UK
Howard re elected across the ditch
National take NZ
All adds up to late period capitalism, watch the dogs eating the dogs.

Think you've seen limitation of personal freedoms yet? Restriction of choice? Outsourcing of jobs and opportunities to the lowest bidder in the far east. Final destruction of any accessible health/education system.
NZ PLC here we come.

[Skyryder]

What misconception? It was, and still is, a crap bill. Have you read it? I have, and so did many others.

Lets look at the Electoral Finance Bill and how the Labour pledge card would be treated.....

It would be a lawful use of parliamentary funds, and not allowed to be scrutinised by the Chief Electoral Officer or the Electoral Commission.

It expressly exempts "any publications that relate to a member of Parliament in his or her capacity as a member of Parliament" from being counted as an election expense.

Sitting MPs will have a huge advantage over non-parliamentary parties and candidates. The immunity on their spending runs for the entire three years of an election cycle. Their opponents have restrictions placed on their advertising from January 1 of election year.

So how does that impede the freedom of speech which so many believe?

There are many publications put out by government that are there to inform the electorate. I will agree that some can be construed as 'advertising' the success of a particular policy. Politicians of the House have a duty to inform the public of what is happening with Government. Personaly I think there is too much of 'in the dark" But having said that these same pollies have earned the right that you are refering to by getting themselves and their party elected to Parliment Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to imply that the same taxpayers money should be made avaliable to non elected members of the public.

Skyrdyer

[Grahameeboy]

Well done, sir.

Take heed, people. You don't have to be able to write a Churchillian speech to lend your weight to this debate.

All those of you who moan and whinge about this country going to the dogs, here's your chance to make a difference to something that matters. Can you be arsed devoting a few hours to reading the Bill and writing a response?

I don't moan about this Country so not registered.

[Grahameeboy]

You're kidding right?

80% of people opposed Bradford's bill. Over the last 12 months, a record number of people have voted with their feet and left NZ.

This current bill is gagging free speech, which is why people are getting pissed off. We want to live in a democracy - not just use a democratic electoral process once every 3 years.

The whole left-wing bullshit spin on everything is getting ridiculous, from crime rates spiraling out of control, skilled workers queuing up to leave, to exploding welfare dependency... there always seems to be some form of "aren't we doing well, the arguments against us are all wrong" message.

Come on now did they really leave because of one Bill...........??

Crime rates spiralling...........??

[Grahameeboy]

So how does that impede the freedom of speech which so many believe?

There are many publications put out by government that are there to inform the electorate. I will agree that some can be construed as 'advertising' the success of a particular policy. Politicians of the House have a duty to inform the public of what is happening with Government. Personaly I think there is too much of 'in the dark" But having said that these same pollies have earned the right that you are refering to by getting themselves and their party elected to Parliment Correct me if I am wrong but you seem to imply that the same taxpayers money should be made avaliable to non elected members of the public.

Skyrdyer

I have not read the Bill as I think it just creates more paranoia.......but your take on things makes sense to me and as usual the knee tremblers stumble out whoeing about how the Country is going to the dogs, I have no freedom blah blah....