Campervan that hit bikers a couple of weeks back

[Her_C4]

She stuffed up -

Yep that appears to about cover it.

so she is planing on going to other places and maybe carry on her career as a serial killer.

WHAT? Where the hell did this come from? I see a long and prosperous career for you as a reporter for the local rag.... who needs facts after all??

That women up North was drunk. It was not an accident and the chances of her killing 3 people were not so remote. She was not only drunk etc but was banned from driving so her driving attitude was so far removed from the tourist in the camper van

Yep - totally different situation, under totally different conditions

An absolute tragedy for everyone!

Very much a tragedy, and how sad that the KB kangaroo court has once again had its own retrial without knowing all available and relevant evidence.

FWIW, my money's on the nature of the vehicle being unsuitable for untrained drivers. Punishing this person further would serve little purpose (the next plane load of tourists won't even know about it). So that won't stop another one doing the same thing, in front of me . Requiring a higher standard of licensing, or forbidding them from difficult roads, might do

Now there is an option and a potential solution to help mitigate the risk of future 'stuff ups'. Anyone else got anything constructive to add?

[Usarka]

Very much a tragedy, and how sad that the KB kangaroo court has once again had its own retrial without knowing all available and relevant evidence.

Did you read the whole thread before making this sweeping statement putting everyone down?

there will always be extremes, but I for one am actually quite heartened by the balanced and reasonable responses by many on this one considering the tragic end result.

[MyGSXF:Me]

After reading the latest newspaper article.. it seems to me that her boyfriend gave her a HUGE fright by yelling out, when he thought she was going to hit the roadside pole...

years ago I was up a ladder painting the front of a hay barn roof.. standing & leaning on a ladder, with an icecream container of paint in my hand.. my boss (as a joke) grabbed & shook the bottom of the ladder & yelled "lookout".. scared the living CRAP outta me.. I dropped the paint, grabbed the ladder in front of me & the jolt of my movements caused the ladder to slide sideways & down I fell. How I didn't end up with anything broken, I'll never know!!! but that simple & stupid act on her behalf, gave me a hell of a fright.. & could have so easily had SERIOUS consequences!!

Who knows.. if her partner hadn't of yelled out like that.. maybe she might not have over corrected so much...

I guess we can all sit here & surmise what happened.. but at the end of the day NOTHING is going to change the accident, or undo the loss & pain that will beset EVERYONE involved..

[dmouse]

here is the quote from the www.stuff.co.nz "Heike and her partner, Alexander, want you to know that wherever in the world they may be, they too will be reflecting, remembering your loss and grieving with you."

Mr Raymond said it was the most difficult sentencing he could remember.

not my words or choice of them nor my choice of punishment, and anyone who has been to europe will know that the roads there are far superior to our country lane type roads that are not built or meant for speed, the short distance that she did was not enough to say she was used to the roads or changing conditions.

[AllanB]

I'd have to say there has been a few occasions over the years that I've nailed it into a corner in the twisties too fast and ended up on the wrong side of the road Lucky for me the roads were empty.

The problem with the court sentence is that by fining her as stated several times here it tends to put a dollar value on the lost or injured life and at sub $8k per it comes across as an insult.

[discotex]

FWIW, my money's on the nature of the vehicle being unsuitable for untrained drivers. Punishing this person further would serve little purpose (the next plane load of tourists won't even know about it). So that won't stop another one doing the same thing, in front of me . Requiring a higher standard of licensing, or forbidding them from difficult roads, might do

You can't seriously be suggesting banning campervans?

I think you'd find the public were more inclined to ban vehicles where the occupants aren't suitably protected by a steel cage... Doesn't hurt tourism as much either. Reduces ACC payouts too.

It's also the last thing any of us would want.

Having to do a special course to rent a campervan or being limited to where I can take it is also something I wouldn't want.

[MarkyMark]

It's an interesting philosophical question, whether luck is morally relevant. What is the difference between the many of us who have accidentally been over the center line versus the driver of the campervan? We got lucky, she got unlucky. The results were undeniably tragic, but she is no more to blame than anyone else that has ever crossed the centerline accidentally and gotten away with it. She got unlucky, and her conscience will torment her forever, punitive punishments won't help the matter.

my $.02

[Usarka]

FWIW, my money's on the nature of the vehicle being unsuitable for untrained drivers.

We are allowed onto the road unsupervised after we've ridden around a couple of cones in a carpark.

As someone who obtained a car license before a bike, i found campervans/trucks no harder to come to grips with than a motorcycle.

[Conquiztador]

As grown ups we are all responsible for our actions. It should not matter if we are from another country or driving a camper van.

[Mikkel]

I'll refer to the first post I made in this thread - I believe it was page 2.

i WISH people would stop saying that sort of thing

we have no idea whether the person concerned even HAS a concience so dribbling on about how awful they'll feel for the rest of their lives is ..... just dribble

and all i know for sure is that i'd rather be her than the people she's killed

From these two statements I am afraid I'll have to conclude that you, had you been in the same situation, would have pleaded NOT GUILTY and thereby have caused the families of the deceased additional grief.
I'm not going to doubt that people have a conscience until it is proven otherwise - just like I am very happy to live in a part of the world where justice is served on an "innocent until proven guilty" basis.

So, what you are saying, is that vehicles that are known to be very unstable, to require extreme care and considerable skill, are allowed to be driven by drivers who (a) have no experience of them ; (b) are driving under very unfamiliar conditions ; (c) are driving long distances when they are probably unaccustomed to such long haul driving ; (d) are of unknown but possible limited experience in general.

Now, doesn't that sound like something that should be looked into.

Manifestly, the driver was incompetent. If that seems harsh, too bad. Competent drivers do not turn their vehicles over on a straight road. She was not (as far as we know) negligent, and the law allowed her to drive the vehicle. But she was incompetent. It is quite possible that most car drivers (myself included) would in fact be unable to drive such a vehicle competently . If so,then the design of the vehicle needs to be addressed.

Shit happens, but it happens a hell of a lot more often when there are not effective processes to prevent it happening.

Indeed it should be looked into! However, make no mistake, most of the driver and riders out there are indeed incompetent. The only thing that make about incompetent motorcyclists better than incompetent car drivers, is that they usually manage to remove themselves (and without much collateral damage mind you) pretty quickly.
And I think it would be easy to find a lot of statistics (and KB threads FWIW) to back that claim up...

THese are Just a few of the posts I found on the first page of this thread. How typical it is that you post about something you know NOTHING about.

Well I was in court today when this sentence happened, and I can tell you that it was highly emotional, and she will punish herself for the rest of her life. It was made perfectly clear to everyone there that this was all the money she had to give, and would give more if she could. THat this money was not a representative of how much there lives are worth- as no price is made on that. But the money was there to give, and to be dealt out as the Judge saw fit.

She has had to meet the families of those killed, and they have forgiven her, even talking to her afterwards, all admitting that they know that it was an accident.

So grow up people. Stop acting like ignorant red necks and ranting on about something you know shit about

Liv - sorry, I've spent my daily rep quota... but make no mistake that I shall put it on my to-do list for tomorrow. Good on ya Phoenix - she's a keeper

Why therefore bother to charge her at all ? Serious question.

I can accept that the woman is remorseful. But what then has charging her accomplished? The $31K is meaningless , a pittance to the families of the dead , almost an insult. And it cannot (certainly should not) be a matter of any great account to her,compared to the remorse/guilt etc.

So, what has society achieved by charging her at all ?

Remember too, the charge was careless driving causing death . For such a charge to stick, it is manifestly necessary that greater care could have prevented the crash.

The fact that she pleaded guilty should IMHO be seen more as a statement of remorse than anything else. I bet there are some people in here who would have tried to get out of it easy if there was any chance that they could...
And yes, we shall never know if a careless charge would have been ultimately ratified by the jury!

... Revenge has no place in a civilised society.

And let's hope that the hardcore "bikies" around here will realise this sooner than later!

Forgive my cynicism, but I don't buy into the remorse business. I find it a lot more plausible that the lady is just happy that she escaped from what would have likely been a huge reparation, a couple of decades worth of community service, and disqualification for life in Austria, scot free.
The amount of reparations is ridiculous and regardless of what others have said "regarding rather preferring to have their loved ones back" (and I agree with this notion), it should have been a bit more punitive and just demonstrates the (ridiculously low) value the government places on human life.

If she wanted to flee the consequences of her actions she wouldn't have pleaded guilty now, would she? Again I sense someone of questionable morals... I shall add you to my to-do list for tomorrow as well. Albeit with another note than fireliv!

- In another country a married woman was sentenced to 200 lashes for having being raped (she was pardoned!), a teacher got jail sentence for calling a teddy bear Muhammed (she was also pardoned). Wonder what the sentence for killing 4 of those countries citicens with a camper would have been?

Indeed - people seem to forget the fact that we're living in a western country.

As I posted earlier - I've actually met this couple when I was in ChCh a few weeks back. I know a little more about the event than most of you and let me assure you that this very nice couple are utterly utterly devestated by this very unusual event that was not 100% their fault and yes - $31,000 does not seem much for a life but she offered everything she had to try and make amends - she offered it before it was demanded, the families involved, the court everyone who has had some involvement with this case agrees that there is a sadness about it because of the guilt and remose of these good people.

Frankly - the attitude of some people here, considering their own VERY pliable morals UTTERLY digusts me. You want to judge people? Look in the bloody mirror and pray there is no god - because one day you may just find yourself in the hot seat! These people stuffed up in an unlucky circumstance and a very bad thing happened. They are beyond sorry - save your bile for the repeat drink drivers, the deliberate overtakers and the serial abusers who DON'T care.

I didn't think I could be offended on KB any more - I was wrong...

You're a good man Paul, and a lot of bigots seem to have the "they're from Europe, they're loaded" mentality which is quite incorrect.
And people should bear in mind that she pleaded guilty and has offered all she's got.

Well personally I think she should pay reparation for the rest of her life, no matter where she lives.
$30k per year, NZ$, to the families.

And I think that you, sir, are an idiot. Live with it!

The article in Stuff re sentencing made clear it was no accident - but a crash. It strongly implied by her partners report she was nodding off. He said she was veering off the road toward a post. In Austria posts are solid not knock overable like ours. So he yelled at her - this must have given her a jolt from her ?nap because when he yelled she pulled hard right. Would you do that - over correct if awake?? If you're not fit to drive or paying attention...

No accident - either fatigue or less likely drugs (they don't test) would be my guess based on described sequence. Negligence clearcut anyway, and that would explain the guilt level, and her offer to pay all her life savings.

One years disqualification doesn't cut it. Money easy to part with - convenience not. Let her have 3 years disqualification at least - catch the buhloody bus. Some repentence is needed here - and this sentence was a joke. No deterrence, and failed to address the problem. It was to be expected this hand slap, given the medias long grooming of the public to feel for the damsel in distress and potential tourist impacts had she received the sentence a Kiwi would have. Still - quite a shock, how slack it was.

Yeah, we all know that those Austrians are druggies... JFC if you have so much faith in the journalistic integrety of the NZ press I have a bridge you can buy very cheaply...

Bollocks - utter bollocks - not even close to what happened - keep guessing

It's not like we could stop them from guessing...

to be continued

[Mikkel]

CONTINUED

Witnessing events in court is not the whole story!
There is a thing called "trauma bonding" which is why some I know working in restorative justice think it is not appropriate in cases involving serious harm.

I have experienced this and have seen it. It is a natural stage to rush to forgiveness of your family member/s killer - to want "closure" so bad and evewryone including the offender to come thru it ok. Often people wh've "forgiven" and "come to terms" with the offender later change their minds with more info (about what happened or the offender)

... and the realisation the guilty party is not really feeling as guilty as they say under pressure of sentencing... or soon after is clearly not so affected shown by reports back about their behaviour.

Often its quickly put behind them - then the victims wish they had not rushed to "make peace" and recommended leniency to the courts. Things may not be as tidy as they may seem - it's a long process.

As I mentioned above we're part of the western civilisation. The only common denominator for that gathering of nations is a background in christianity (like it or not). A couple of the central themes in christianity are intent, action, penance and forgiveness. Unless you would prefer the old ways of an-eye-for-an-eye I suggest you realise that:

There was no intent.
No active action to cause injury.
All possible ways of penance has been explored by the driver.
The relatives of the diseased have forgiven the driver.

Your pseudo psychology may be correct - but if it helps everyone involved to move on, give it a rest.

Guys, I personally have a big problem with ignorant road users on 4+ wheels.

I also have a problem with ignorant road users on 2 wheels!

All the touchy feely huggie wuggie stuff about what a wonderful couple they are, how remorseful she is etc , is really quite irrelevant.

There are huge numbers of those camper van things driven by tourists all over the roads. I get stuck behind one almost every time I go out.

The next time I see one I do not want to have to wonder if it is suddenly going to veer across the road in front of me when it is too late to swerve or stop.

Turning your vehicle over on the wrong side of a straight road is not the act of a competent driver.

Barring a true act of God (the van being hit by lightening or something) then there are only two possibilities: either the driver was negligent, or the nature of the vehicle (on that road at any rate) was such that the driver was not able properly to control it.

If the latter, then the appropriate authorties need to take steps to review the licensing arrangments that allow such vehicles to be driven by drivers who have not demonstrated competence at driving them. If the former , then she was negligent, in which case it matters not one jot how remorseful she is or how "lovely" they are. Are we to accept that it is permissable to drive negligently if one is "nice", and will be remorseful when one kills someone ? Negligence is negligence , whether the negligent person be a lovely tourist or the nasty Mongrel Mob member around.

FWIW, my money's on the nature of the vehicle being unsuitable for untrained drivers. Punishing this person further would serve little purpose (the next plane load of tourists won't even know about it). So that won't stop another one doing the same thing, in front of me . Requiring a higher standard of licensing, or forbidding them from difficult roads, might do

(BTW, I wonder why a 30 years old architect would have life savings of only $30K ? Cash on hand of that much , maybe, but to have no other assets by her age, given her profession seems to indicate remarkable improvidence).

You are very correct here Ixion. However, we all live our lives differently and as I wrote earlier, Austria is not a rich country by any means.

[fireliv]

Witnessing events in court is not the whole story!
There is a thing called "trauma bonding" which is why some I know working in restorative justice think it is not appropriate in cases involving serious harm.

I have experienced this and have seen it. It is a natural stage to rush to forgiveness of your family member/s killer - to want "closure" so bad and evewryone including the offender to come thru it ok. Often people wh've "forgiven" and "come to terms" with the offender later change their minds with more info (about what happened or the offender)

... and the realisation the guilty party is not really feeling as guilty as they say under pressure of sentencing... or soon after is clearly not so affected shown by reports back about their behaviour.

Often its quickly put behind them - then the victims wish they had not rushed to "make peace" and recommended leniency to the courts. Things may not be as tidy as they may seem - it's a long process.

I see many court cases a day, and I know what I saw and heard in this one.
That may be true, but who are we to Judge????

[candor]

I see many court cases a day, and I know what I saw and heard in this one.

Yep well, that picture on the steps of the Court did show remorse with capital R, so you prolly do know what you saw. Funny how the views in this thread are so polarised - I'm sure the penalty in Austria would have been more severe, but then the time spent here in a strange Country awaiting legal resolution must have been...(lost for word). Not much can be added here, but that input from Ixion is good - as in; if it's a mismatch to vehicle / skill then what? Tyical for NZ - sweep it under carpet till next time I guess .

[Conquiztador]

CONTINUED

You are very correct here Ixion. However, we all live our lives differently and as I wrote earlier, Austria is not a rich country by any means.

Perhaps not the richest country in the world. But they do not do badly. The average weekly income in 2006 was NZ$ 880.00. In NZ we had in 2006 an average of $610.00.

[Shadows]

Perhaps not the richest country in the world. But they do not do badly. The average weekly income in 2006 was NZ$ 880.00. In NZ we had in 2006 an average of $610.00.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.
I suspect that Austria doesn't have a large population of Labour voters on the dole in places like South Auckland bringing the national average down either.