Campervan that hit bikers a couple of weeks back

[imdying]

Still based on your view I guess we should applaud the 70k limit for learners eh?

I don't see why not... it keeps them off unsuitable (for learners) stretches of road like motorways...

[Katman]

We control our own destiny when operating a vehicle.

Careful, we almost sound like we're on the same team.

[MSTRS:Me]

' A fuckup is a fuckup, pure and simple.

It sure is, but still random...I mean, one does not go out with the thought that 'today I am going to fuckup at 2.33pm on this bit of road and there will be a motorist in just the right place to make this fuckup tragic'.

[mstriumph]

Do you honestly think that from the times she has been shown live on tv & what she said in her statements etc.. she is some kind of dropkick loser who doesn't have a heart???

oh sheesh!!
talk is cheap and emotion can be manufactured
---- and, as for sincerity, if you can fake that you've got it made ...- ask any politician

I wouldn't want to be ANY of them! not victims, families or the driver ...............

if you'da said that in your first post i wouldn't have commented ..... just your sole mention of the supposed sufferings of the poor driver [irony] raised my hackles is all.....

[Grahameeboy]

I don't see why not... it keeps them off unsuitable (for learners) stretches of road like motorways...

I would say that 70kph on the motorway is actually dangerous when most of the traffic is going faster but would agree with other roads, however, that was not my point

[Grahameeboy]

oh sheesh!!
talk is cheap and emotion can be manufactured
---- and, as for sincerity, if you can fake that you've got it made ...- ask any politician



if you'da said that in your first post i wouldn't have commented ..... just your sole mention of the supposed sufferings of the poor driver [irony] raised my hackles is all.....

I would say the driver is suffering the outcome of her actions....I know I would if that had been me..........nothing in wrong in pointing that out.

[Dilligaf]

And the dead were only motorcyclists. Worth $8000 a life, in the estimation of the learned judge.

Yes indeed let's go there.... $8000 too little you say? Well then let's start working out how much would be appropriate. I see that others have suggested perhaps $30 000 / year. Why not work out exactly how much a life is worth then..
Hmm, I guess we must take into consideration lots of things right? Perhaps a good start would be how much that person has added to society... well, then, we start with their tax contribution. (backs up yet anyone?) Of course, beneficiaries cost us as a society so of course it would follow that their life would be worth less right? Hmm, guess that means that children would be worth less too.. unless you could work out statistically their future worth to society - their chance of becoming a bonus or a burden to society. Slippery slope that one because of course some people rise above their circumstances... but I'm sure we could come up with some formula based on their socio-economic status and future earnings potential...
Bonus points could be awarded for volunteer work, negative for excessive use of public money (public hospital visits, time spent in prison etc)...
What? Some of you getting a little uncomfortable where this is headed? Gosh, I would have thought this was a natural progression. Argue about the sum of money and surely it follows that there is a 'perfect' figure. How else does one work it out?

[Mikkel]

Agreed. But if your only riding experience is on GN250 and you rent a Goldwing, you are a lot more likely to get into trouble. Especially on an unfamiliar, narrow, twisted, and poorly paved road. Especially when you have to drive on the other side of the road and your every instinct screams you to move to the lane belonging to the oncoming traffic.

Have you ever tried driving somewhere where you drive on the other side of the road than you're used to? If not, let me tell you that your instinct doesn't scream anything at all...
I don't know about the GN vs. Goldwing comparison - I've understood that Goldwings are quite easy to drive, but very hard to pick up if you tip them over.

Still, this didn't happen on a narrow, twisted and poorly paved road from what I could tell.

I don't see why not... it keeps them off unsuitable (for learners) stretches of road like motorways...

Not all learners are equal - and the 70 km/h restriction is bullshit.

oh sheesh!!
talk is cheap and emotion can be manufactured
---- and, as for sincerity, if you can fake that you've got it made ...- ask any politician

Takes one to know one?


As for discussing the driving experience that the Austrienne may or may not have - we have NO way of knowing. She could hold a class 5 license with all endorsements for all we know. ...and the situation could still have occurred.
It isn't that long ago that an experience bus driver threw a Kiwibus down a cliff over near Franz Josef. And some time before that another Kiwibus driver managed to flip a fucking bus on the 90 mile beach. I can't remember the details of these cases and the drivers could have been right fuckwits - but still, accidents happens to everyone.
FFS - why would people like Ayrton Senna otherwise crash and die everynow and again?

[imdying]

I would say that 70kph on the motorway is actually dangerous when most of the traffic is going faster but would agree with other roads, however, that was not my point

I never picked you as that thick... they're not supposed to be on the motorway as a learner motorcyclist... that's why they make it a 70 limit for them... saves them having to say no motorway/highway/80km/hr zone/etc/etc/etc... you're not allowed to ride anywhere faster than a 70 zone (cause then you'd be breaking another law... riding too slow and causing a nuisance or some crap).

[imdying]

Not all learners are equal - and the 70 km/h restriction is bullshit.

Yeah mate, lowest common denominator though... they do however give you a way out of that... it's called the restricted

[mstriumph]

oh, this is fun

Originally Posted by mstriumph
i WISH people would stop saying that sort of thing

we have no idea whether the person concerned even HAS a concience so dribbling on about how awful they'll feel for the rest of their lives is ..... just dribble

Originally Posted by mstriumph
and all i know for sure is that i'd rather be her than the people she's killed

From these two statements I am afraid I'll have to conclude that you, had you been in the same situation, would have pleaded NOT GUILTY and thereby have caused the families of the deceased additional grief.
I'm not going to doubt that people have a conscience until it is proven otherwise - just like I am very happy to live in a part of the world where justice is served on an "innocent until proven guilty" basis.

forgive me for nitpicking, but aren't YOU the one that's commenting at length about people jumping to conclusions based on scant evidence or appearances?

personally, i'm not only the one pleading guilty, i'm the one helping clear the mangled debris, carry the dying, dig the graves, scrub the tombstones for the remainder of my days or whatever other ghastly thing i could think of [that wouldn't cause further upset] to even marginally atone in the slightest most insignificant way for the havoc i'd wrought ..... for me, thinking that any amount of money could expiate the guilt i would feel is laughable.

but i don't make the error of thinking every other inadvertant killer must feel the way i do

i am me

other people are just that - someone else

any supposition any third party makes about EITHER of us is conjecture

and there is a difference between fact and conjecture


there's only one thing that can be said with any certainty and that is WE DON'T KNOW
with respect, that was all i was trying to point out.

[Grahameeboy]

I never picked you as that thick... they're not supposed to be on the motorway as a learner motorcyclist... that's why they make it a 70 limit for them... saves them having to say no motorway/highway/80km/hr zone/etc/etc/etc... you're not allowed to ride anywhere faster than a 70 zone (cause then you'd be breaking another law... riding too slow and causing a nuisance or some crap).

Well I have seen learners on the motorway and assumed it was different over here. I mean they are not real motorways anyway.

Thanks for the heads up.

[mstriumph]

...................


Takes one to know one?...........

tsk tsk
the only LAUDABLE thing about this debate-to-date is that participants have mostly AVOIDED schoolyard namecalling and infantile personal abuse

but there always has to be one, doesn't there

sorry, Mikkel - unable to descend to your level so i'll stop here.

merry christmas

[Mikkel]

Yeah mate, lowest common denominator though... they do however give you a way out of that... it's called the restricted

forgive me for nitpicking, but aren't YOU the one that's commenting at length about people jumping to conclusions based on scant evidence or appearances?

I have to give you that - my wording was imprecise. I'd change it to "... afraid will lead me to think that you might, ..."

personally, i'm not only the one pleading guilty, i'm the one helping clear the mangled debris, carry the dying, dig the graves, scrub the tombstones for the remainder of my days or whatever other ghastly thing i could think of [that wouldn't cause further upset] to even marginally atone in the slightest most insignificant way for the havoc i'd wrought ..... for me, thinking that any amount of money could expiate the guilt i would feel is laughable.

That is indeed good to know. And yes, I agree that the amount of money are irrelevant - whether they can expiate the guilt or not, they can be seen as a gesture of accepting responsibility.

but i don't make the error of thinking every other inadvertant killer must feel the way i do

Of course not, but with compassion comes the thing about giving people the benefit of the doubt.

there's only one thing that can be said with any certainty and that is WE DON'T KNOW
with respect, that was all i was trying to point out.

Now these are wise words and something I agree with. And now you have made that clear - thank you!

[Mikkel]

tsk tsk
the only LAUDABLE thing about this debate-to-date is that participants have mostly AVOIDED schoolyard namecalling and infantile personal abuse

but there always has to be one, doesn't there

sorry, Mikkel - unable to descend to your level so i'll stop here.

merry christmas

Oh, I was merely being provocative. Notice the question mark - not an exclamation mark at the end...