New engine development - your input into layout requested.

**AllanB** · 25th December 2007, 10:59

Questions for you - whats the engines going into - naked, sports, cruiser styled bikes? or do you plan an across platform engine - say 800 V-Twin in all three styles? Water/air cooled?

400 = irrelevant for me as I am on a 900 now. However -
maybe just maybe a sweet 250 starter bike? The thing here is if you are starting as a rider are you going to invest your bucks in an unknown brand?

Yamaha had a nice water cooled 400 v-twin in the 80's (Jap market version of the 550), plus Suzuki sold zillions of the 400/4 thingies in the same period. Kawasaki did fine with the Z400/440, and Honda the 400 twins (the blandest of the above).

So -what happened to the 400 range? the 600's took over. Killed the 750's as well the bastards.

Unless your proposed 400 is very well priced or a cheap dirter ......

800 V-twin - take on the Ducati Monster and Japanese cruisers and you may do well. $ will be the big break point and shop support.

I'd go for a sweet very clean bobber style cruiser - get rid of all the fat crap on the HD and their copies and strip it down to a light traffic-light rocket. That Sporster nightster is getting there.

**thehovel** · 25th December 2007, 11:35

Cowpoos is on the right track ,single 250, twin 500, triple 750 & inline four 1000. All motors to use the same pistons & internals. the twin would not be a v but in line. Water cooled ,all naked bikes sport or custom. there could also a trail option. My preferance would be the triple. I had a k75 BMW the best all round bike I have had.

Thats enough thinking for today. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY ONE. Richard

**Ivan** · 25th December 2007, 11:55

Yip as mentioned tig craft etc,

I would love an engine if you could make it to fit into a RS125 Honda chassis and race in F3

**dmouse** · 25th December 2007, 18:03

will this motor have a long or short stroke as this will really determine barrel/piston size and so on ?

but what about a 250 with heavier crank and cases that can be upgraded to a 500 or push the length of the stoke and port out the heads and make it a 600 special, with the 250 being able to be upgraded to the 500 or a special 600 just my two cents

**homer** · 25th December 2007, 19:02

personally i think the most important is going to be cost

the ride away price
lets say you do a 800 v twin
and the price is say $9000 new
while you have bandits anywhere between say $8000 - 10500 second hand

Now i know there not new ,but there a proven brand ,proven engine \
after all the engines like 20 years old
but its bigger going to have more grunt ,and 4 cylinders

so if your toying with say $9000 which would you buy ?

**homer** · 25th December 2007, 19:04

Originally Posted by AllanB

Questions for you - whats the engines going into - naked, sports, cruiser styled bikes? or do you plan an across platform engine - say 800 V-Twin in all three styles? Water/air cooled?

400 = irrelevant for me as I am on a 900 now. However -
maybe just maybe a sweet 250 starter bike? The thing here is if you are starting as a rider are you going to invest your bucks in an unknown brand?

Yamaha had a nice water cooled 400 v-twin in the 80's (Jap market version of the 550), plus Suzuki sold zillions of the 400/4 thingies in the same period. Kawasaki did fine with the Z400/440, and Honda the 400 twins (the blandest of the above).

So -what happened to the 400 range? the 600's took over. Killed the 750's as well the bastards.

Unless your proposed 400 is very well priced or a cheap dirter ......

800 V-twin - take on the Ducati Monster and Japanese cruisers and you may do well. $ will be the big break point and shop support.

I'd go for a sweet very clean bobber style cruiser - get rid of all the fat crap on the HD and their copies and strip it down to a light traffic-light rocket. That Sporster nightster is getting there.

Totaly agree its all price today
You dont need a huge range
it just has to see its self

**Ocean1** · 25th December 2007, 20:39

Q1: Fairly high. I like big V twins, but the extra weight’s a negative for the 400.
Q2: Not at all, I’d prefer a single at 400cc.
Q3: Yes thanks, I’d love a 1200 radial triple sprots tourer.

Want a hand?

**Mikkel** · 25th December 2007, 21:08

Q1: I'm still on my learners so anything above 250 ccm is dreaming atm. But when on my full it would depend upon application...

Q2: No/yes, depending upon application!

You need to make sure you identify your target market. There will always be someone who can see the merits of a certain engine: Single 400, V-twin or IL 800, IL triple 1200... etc ad nauseum.
For a sports bike on the road both an inline 4 and a V4 1000 ccm would always be appreciated. However, if you're looking at off-road applications I don't think anyone could put a finger on a single-cylinder engine...

**Sketchy_Racer** · 25th December 2007, 21:15

Originally Posted by Ivan

Yip as mentioned tig craft etc,

I would love an engine if you could make it to fit into a RS125 Honda chassis and race in F3

Because there is a HUGE market for a motor like that aye Ivan. (heavy sarcasm)

Cowpoo's theory of a 250 single, 500 twin and 1000V4 is great.

engineer one extreemly good top end and piston config, and all you have to worry about for each motor is bottom ends. It amazes me that less motor lines are designed like this. Less time sorting the niggly bits out on each idividual motor.

Oh and fuel injection for all of the configs. Do it once do it right

**homer** · 25th December 2007, 21:18

Originally Posted by Mikkel

Q1: I'm still on my learners so anything above 250 ccm is dreaming atm. But when on my full it would depend upon application...

Q2: No/yes, depending upon application!

You need to make sure you identify your target market. There will always be someone who can see the merits of a certain engine: Single 400, V-twin or IL 800, IL triple 1200... etc ad nauseum.
For a sports bike on the road both an inline 4 and a V4 1000 ccm would always be appreciated. However, if you're looking at off-road applications I don't think anyone could put a finger on a single-cylinder engine...

If its for off road most would be happy with a xr400cc engine and jet it so its the equivelent of a 450 cc.....there an absolute rocket
most would pull up 180 km
which is heaps of grunt

**Speedo-cop** · 26th December 2007, 08:34

Hey all - thanks very much for the replies and thought.

I'm noticing several themes:

- up the capacity and add a 250 to the line.
- really define the market ie road/offroad.
- there ARE a few people who seem happy with the 400single/800v-twin layout!

To design: By it's nature, the engine will have higher than average low-end torque for it's capacity, though I'll have to work hard to maintain high-range power, especially without pre/post combustion supercharging - which will be an option at a later date - though not at first, as one of the first major focuses to start is extreme simplicity. And fuel injection is inherent.

If anyone else would like to add their two cents - please do!

**FilthyLuka** · 26th December 2007, 08:37

Make the 250 cheap and bullet proof, doesn't matter if it skints a little on performance. The punters need a learner bike that is cheap to run and damn solid!

**smoky** · 26th December 2007, 08:49

What about a rotor?

And while you're talkin about marketing - think about colour, the cat yellow your typing in is reeeeally hard to read.

**davejenknz** · 26th December 2007, 09:21

Of my last 5 bikes, 3 have been V-twins (two 800s), a 400 single and a 600 il4. So:
Q1 V Twin and would have to be an 800
Q2 Don't like singles.

**Pixie** · 26th December 2007, 12:47

V-twins are a well developed bad design.
2 valve trains 2 coolant circuits
awkward intake and exhaust tracts.

Parallel twins much better and don't give me the narrowness arguement.
ER6 with alternator behind the cylinders is as narrow as an SV 650