Countersteering

[johan]

I want to know how people get around without counterstearing, it should just come naturally to anyone on two wheels

This is how I see it:
Counter steering won't come naturally to anyone, it's a very awkward way of thinking and works against your reflexes. Yet you need to reprogram your reflexes to avoid crashes in unexpected situations.

When you learned to ride the push-bike/bicycle and you finally could turn while still keeping your balance, you've unconsciously learned to counter steer. You're steering the bike with your reflexes, not your mind.
This works great for bicycles most of the time, but will get you into trouble when you move on to the motorbike.
When you first ride the motorbike you'll find it pretty easy to ride and steer during normal cruise. It's very stable with all those big rotating masses and you're having a blast. You'll even start to pick up some more speed, with growing confidence.
It's not until you're in a corner and need to react to something, you're really in deep water if your not aware how to (counter)steer a bike.
Facing an obstacle located at the outside of a right hand corner you're now trying to steer more to the right. Not understanding that you need to counter steer to do so, your hard working mind (not reflexes any more) is going to twist the bars to the right and according to the counter steering theory, this manoeuvre will make the bike raise up from it's right hand lean and start straighten out or go to the left. The driver will freak out, slam the breaks even though he's already descending the 300m deep canyon.

However, the rider understanding counter steering, will just lean his body more to the right while pulling the left handle bar closer to the tank, while his right hand is casually opening the throttle to settle the bike nicely in the corner.

Apply front break slowly while leaned over and you'll really feel how hard work it is to keep the bike leaned. It wants to raise up again. Counter steering will again help you keep your lean.

Anyone not fully understanding the importance of this technique should IMO really try it out on a push bike at low speed till they realize during all these years on two wheels, with or without engine, they never knew how to consciously steer a bike.

Anyway, that's my experience.

cheers beers

[Luckylegs]

Anyone not already countersteering should put there trainer wheels back on before they crash

Yip weve established that, but there are multiple levels of effectively countersteering.

Its ironic that its likely those not countersteering well probably need to apply more pressure to the bars to "tip" further which is gonna be hard with the training wheels on

[cowpoos]

Yep...your completely right!!
you can not make a motorcycle go around a corner at speed without counter steering...this is physically impossible...whether your aware of doing it...or not...all motorcyclists counter steer.

Yesterday, I turned right into the street I live in, doing about 20kph.

re: read my post ya twit!!! lol

[007XX]

re: read my post ya twit!!! lol

Eeerrr...I believe he was taking the piss, so you may want to re read carefully your post and his...just saying!

[FROSTY:Me]

Awrighty --point being countersteering is something talked about a lot.
Understanding what its all about is part of learning biking

[Sully60]

After all of the above I still don't get it!

Is it like on Cars when Doc Hudson tells Lightning Mc Queen that if you're turning hard enough right you'll end up turning left?

Or is it that everytime I turn I have to count a the steering? One two three four five, can I stop counting now?

All you guys argue like you fix roads, "lousy".

[Badger8]

As a real fresh noob i found i was doing it without even realising. Once i was up to taking corners at pace, i tended to drop my shoulder and lean in a bit, and in doing so i was pushing without actually realising that's what was going on.
THE BEST thing i did to understand it was exactly what was said at the top of this thread. go in a straight line, push the bar and see where you go. I found as i pushed and the bike started to lean, i instinctively dropped in with it, and that's what i was doing all along.

Once i was aware of this, i started playing with the bars in the middle of a corner (always with plenty of room and lean angle to play with tho, safety first ) and found that the same applied when i was tipped in too. Played with adjusting lines midway through so if i ever need to in a crisis, it comes naturally.

Was the best confidence boost i got since i've been on the bike!

[discotex]

Yesterday, I turned right into the street I live in, doing about 20kph.

All the way through the turn, my steering head was turned in the direction I was going, rotated a good 10-20 degrees to the right!

Not to rain on your parade mate but that's not actually what happened right at the start. Once leant over the wheel does track in the direction of the turn but the initiation of the turn still required an initial input the otherway (but very small at that speed).

Some great videos that show what's happening with some good technical explanations as well.

First one at around 3mph

[YOUTUBE]OLzB5oriblk[/YOUTUBE]

This one at around 15mph

[YOUTUBE]M1A7o-aXvqU[/YOUTUBE]

re: read my post ya twit!!! lol

Countersteering applies at all speeds. You were right all along mate

[jrandom]

Not to rain on your parade mate but that's not actually what happened right at the start.

Right, I'm going to film myself turning the handlebars to one side at a standstill, and then letting the clutch out with the bars held like that and riding in a continuous circle in that direction.

How much money are you prepared to bet that The Physics Of Countersteering (tm) will somehow intervene and make the universe explode to prevent me?

[FROSTY:Me]

hey random -mate its all about gyroscopes n stuff-spin em too slow they dont work propper like --and bike wheels are fuck off big gyros
--or summat like that

[Luckylegs]

Dunno about you lot but egghead types going on about gyro this or that gives me a headache.

hey random -mate its all about gyroscopes n stuff-spin em too slow they dont work propper like --and bike wheels are fuck off big gyros
--or summat like that

Hows that headache coming along then ?

[ManDownUnder]

How much money are you prepared to bet that The Physics Of Countersteering (tm) will somehow intervene and make the universe explode to prevent me?

If you set up a static turn from a standstill and keep riding around in circles... you're right. Just one question - when was the last time you did that? As soon as you deviate - at all - turn sharper or less sharply... guess what... God forbid you want to straighten up or even *gasp* change direction

MDU
PS - TPOC would be more in keeping with KB Acronyms Of Extreme Sillyness Because We Can - (AOESBWC - tm) ANTR, BDOTGNZA, ATGATT etc...

[discotex]

Right, I'm going to film myself turning the handlebars to one side at a standstill, and then letting the clutch out with the bars held like that and riding in a continuous circle in that direction.

How much money are you prepared to bet that The Physics Of Countersteering (tm) will somehow intervene and make the universe explode to prevent me?

If you start with the bike totally upright the bike will lean the opposite direction to the way the bars are turned.

If you start with it leant over in the direction of the turn already then sure totally possible.

I'll put $50 down as long as there's no tricks (such as dropping the clutch and sliding the rear etc) and the video is setup correctly to show the angles and wheel etc.

[jrandom]

Just one question - when was the last time you did that?

At lunchtime, when I pulled a U-turn across the street. I turned my bars, looked over my shoulder, let off the front brake, stuck out a foot and gassed it.

Guess what? The bike went in the direction I had the bars turned.

The point of turning the bars at slow speed isn't to steer like a four-wheeled vehicle. It's to stop the bike falling over flat on its side as you use your weight to flop it around a very short radius.

The wheels don't have to be spinning and exerting magical gyroscopic wossnames to influence the way the bike tips. Ever seen a cyclist do a trackstand? You turn the handlebars in the direction the bike's tipping in to push it back the other way.

If it works when the wheels are at a dead standstill, it's not bloody gyroscopic, is it.

[jrandom]

If you start with it leant over in the direction of the turn already then sure totally possible.

Ah right.

You are asserting that it is impossible to lean a bike over when it is moving without countersteering, but that it is possible when the bike is at a standstill.

I assert in turn that of course it's bloody possible to lean a bike over without countersteering, whether it's moving or not - you just hang a weight off one side of it and it'll tip!

Ergo, you can turn a motorcycle without countersteering.

Countersteering is just an easy way of making the bike fall to one side. The other option is unbalancing it with weight.

That works less and less well as the bike goes faster and the spinning bits become more powerful gyroscopes.

It's silly to assert that it's always impossible to turn without countersteering.

The reality is, there's a sliding scale - as the bike goes faster and the spinning wheels exert more and more force keeping it upright, more and more weight is needed to pull it over to one side.

Are you telling me that if you suddenly welded a 10 metre long rod with 500kg on the other end of it to the left side of the frame of a motorcycle travelling at 100kph, the motorcycle would not immediately fall over on its left side, even if the steering head was locked in place?

Edit: More to the point, are you asserting that as that gedankenexperiment motorcycle fell over, it would continue to travel in a straight line?