The Bum Steer

[HDTboy]

How far do you think you could go using your bum steer technique if I welded up the steering head on your bike? Assuming you only countersteer to trim the turn as indicated in the first post.

[Ixion]

The counter-steer by its very nature tips the bike into the corner but leaves the rider upright with the outside bum cheek loaded up! This puts the rider's weight in a place where it is trying to stand the bike up while everything else is trying to get around the corner. It just can't be right.

Eh? That's not right Left corner, shove left shoulder forward , weight moves toward left , y' body will roll (insomuch as it moves at all) onto the left cheek, not right. And vice versa.

You CAN turn a bike without countersteering, but it's of very limited practicality .

I learnt to ride before anybody had ever heard of countersteering.

And then discovered , years later, that it was just a lot of talk about what we had alwasy done.

Try the test and see. Hold the bars just with a finger and thumb. Like pinching the grips. so the only thing on each grip is the tip of you long finger and the tip of your thumb. That way you'll be aware of any inputs you make into the bars. Now try going round a few corners (it works fine).

Pay attention to the pressures on those finger tips. See if you cna corner without any pressure on the finger tips. And if you are pressing, which way.

[Grub]

How far do you think you could go using your bum steer technique if I welded up the steering head on your bike? Assuming you only countersteer to trim the turn as indicated in the first post.

Do you know anything about the design of a bike? Steering head angle? Trail?

[HDTboy]

The counter-steer by its very nature tips the bike into the corner but leaves the rider upright with the outside bum cheek loaded up! This puts the rider's weight in a place where it is trying to stand the bike up while everything else is trying to get around the corner. It just can't be right.

I think I may see the problem. it seems that people are using "countersteering" as an excuse for poor body positioning, and they're doing the old pillion trick of trying to sit upright rather than leaning with the bike.

Edit: I know a little about bike design

[Grub]

Try the test and see. Hold the bars just with a finger and thumb. Like pinching the grips. so the only thing on each grip is the tip of you long finger and the tip of your thumb. That way you'll be aware of any inputs you make into the bars. Now try going round a few corners (it works fine).

Not disputing what countersteering is or that input on the bar makes the bike go the other way. Talking about cornering.

If countersteering is the only way a bike turns then it would be impossible for Stoner or Rossi to go around the track with their arms in the air - which they do. "look ma, no hands" ... I wonder how they do that? Body weight? Leaning?

[jrandom]

Several sacred cows...

Don't you mean steers?

[Forest]

Countersteering, and the no bullshit bike

That's awesome.

[Devil]

Errr as for the racer's shifting their arse off the seat BEFORE the corner... from what I understand thats what you should be doing instead of making that kind of movement when you're already committed to the corner, therefore potentially unsettling the bike. Your bike is at it's most stable without you, remember...

[Nasty]

Whats really amazing is that I was told that countersteering is a great way to get out of the shit. There is a piece of something on the road and you need to get around it ... you are in the middle of the courner and you need to adjust your position .. these are circumstances where countersteering is perfect. No secret formula .... the countersteer is about leaning the bike over ... to get around things or stuff .... hmmm off to think some more.

[Bass]

Think about the dynamics of this. The counter-steer is using gyroscopic precession to apply a directional force from the application of opposing forces.

I am about to deal to another sacred cow.
I too believed that countersteering worked because of gyroscopic precession.
However, about 18 months ago there was a thread in here that argued this quite vehemently (can't find it at the moment). Anyway, the whole thing was settled when someone quoted an article concerning a guy in the states a couple of years back, who built a bike that had counter-rotating wheels within the normal ones. This, of course, had the effect of cancelling out any gyroscopic effects at all.
He found that the bike handled pretty much as any bike does, i.e. that counter steering still worked and so gyroscopic forces (which do explain the phenomenon) are not the major reason for it.
The conclusion reached was that if (for example) one wishes to turn left and so counter steers to the right. The tyre contact patch moves right and the bike rolls about its own centre of mass and so leans to the left.
Further, for reasons that I can't remember, precession does make some contribution to standing the bike up again when exiting the corner. I presume it has something to do with acceleration.
I shall continue hunting for the thread that I mentioned.

[MSTRS:Me]

It is very simple...riding a bike efficiently is a whole body experience.
Shift of shoulder angle, bum and/or body to one side, weighting pegs, pushing with a knee on the tank, nudging of bars....
The more of these that you combine, the better the result will be.
It is all countersteering to some extent. Obviously the most noticeable technique is the push/pull on the bars, so that is what most do or are taught to do. The other components singly or together do not create enough turn force to be effective in the tight stuff, but will be a thing of beauty in long flowing corners that do not require sharp transitions. For that, you need the bars...

[hellnback]

I've been watching and reading all the countersteering threads of late and someone's comment "... if you're getting around corners, then you must be coutersteering, can't be done otherwise ..." has prompted me to post a counter-view on counter-steering....... blah blah blah
I post this because I am genuinely worried about people training themselves to use unbalanced and contradictory forces to get them into a corner - a process which naturally unsettles a bike.

Several sacred cows have been harmed in the preparation of this message.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but green bling will never hurt me

So basically all your saying is "lean off bike whilst countersteering"

[mowgli]

Think about the dynamics of this. The counter-steer is using gyroscopic precession to apply a directional force from the application of opposing forces. Doing so unsettles the bikle, you are applying a side-load to the front tyre that doesn't need to be there. The Bum Steer on the other hand is simply letting the bike fall into a position to cut the corner in a totally natural way. All the forces are acting in unision and towards the apex of the corner. If it didn't work, racers wouldn't be using it (watch the MotoGP slow motions to see it in action).

You're missing an important point about gyroscopic precession. The bars aren't the only way to induce precession in front tyre. The unbalanced force of your bum on the inside of the turn will indeed apply a force to the inside top of the front tyre as if to lean it into the corner. Due to precession that force acts instead to turn the front tyre into the corner without leaning the bike.

In essence you're using weight shift instead of lean to balance the cornering forces. This will work at slow speeds but at normal speeds you need to lean the bike over and simply shifting your weight won't work. At high speeds when you've reached the lean limit of the bike then you must use weight to balance the forces.

I think this may be where you're getting confused with your racer example. It's easier for them to move their weight before entering the corner to avoid any major shifts mid-corner that might unsettle the bike. I recall a racer on here saying that between two turns on one track he needed all his strength to push on the bars to get from leaning all the way over one way to all the way over on the other side. I'll bet his bum was off the seat as well.

Of course you may be counter steering without realising when you shift your weight because you may naturally be pulling a little on the outside handle bar.

In general I find it much more comfortable at normal speeds to corner simply by keeping my bum on the seat and leaning the bike over into the turn. I do this by counter steering. So I don't buy your bum steer idea. Thanks though because I found it interesting thinking though the physics of it.

[skelstar]

Not sure what this is going to achieve really. You guys won't come to a consensus (you rarely do), the bike/you arrangement is still going to behave the same, you're still going to ride just as well, and the usual culprits will litter the discussion with sexual innuendo.

I find it pays not to think too hard about this kind of thing. I like to know when my tyres are up to temp, where my head is pointing and if the rubber is good. End of story.

[MSTRS:Me]

Not sure what this is going to achieve really. You guys won't come to a consensus (you rarely do), the bike/you arrangement is still going to behave the same, you're still going to ride just as well, and the usual culprits will litter the discussion with sexual innuendo.

I find it pays not to think too hard about this kind of thing. I like to know when my tyres are up to temp, where my head is pointing and if the rubber is good. End of story.

Right on all counts.
Except in bold...a lot of thinking must go into riding a bike. Until your technique becomes automatic, that is. Then your brain is freed-up to consider stuff that hasn't reached you yet. This is why people who have ridden for years seldom bin.