Advice needed, bike choice

[dammad1]

Yeah I've noticed the difference between the 200 and the 300. Used to get close to 80k out of a tank.

Bigger bore, bigger carb and way heavier drinker.

The KTM two stroke have always tended to be a bit light in the front and is something that does need attention. Fitted a damper and fuck it has saved my bacon a couple of times. I can even take my hand off to pull remove a tear off without shitty myself.

Hey KTMBOY i found my 300 was very thirsty until I changed the jetting a little and lowered the float level a bit, now its a lot better I get about 80K from the tank.

What damper are you using? I am just looking into getting a Scotts under bar setup, i've read alot of good things about them.

I had a small re valve done on the forks this week so will try it on sunday, but mark Patterson reckons I should go one size heavier on the spring rates to get it to ride a little higher in its stroke and i'm only 80kg.

[Ktmboy]

Hey KTMBOY i found my 300 was very thirsty until I changed the jetting a little and lowered the float level a bit, now its a lot better I get about 80K from the tank.

What damper are you using? I am just looking into getting a Scotts under bar setup, i've read alot of good things about them.

I had a small re valve done on the forks this week so will try it on sunday, but mark Patterson reckons I should go one size heavier on the spring rates to get it to ride a little higher in its stroke and i'm only 80kg.

Sorry to steal ya thread Jimmy.

Dammad1, could you PM me on what you did to the jetting on this. I just about have to tow a mini tanker behind. Its not fouling up and is not running rich tho.

My damper is a Roc Stompa (advanced) and apart from looking like a CD player works extremely well.

[Reckless]

So what are your 300exec's like on the MX tracks or are they pretty much for farms amd forests. I'm pretty convinced I'll get another CR250 and enduro'ise it a bit to get the best of both worlds (or as close as comprimise as I can). FLy wheel weight and re valve etc.

[Danger]

Well thats a debate thats been going on for a long time, Mark Patterson doesn't like the old progressive rear springs he thinks that the straight rates behave better over a series of bumps and I actually changed to a straight rate spring on my old 03 300 and it defianetly made the rear end more compliant.
and the rear end on my 08 is really good tracks perfect but the forks need a little work, just a little harsh on the real hard pack.

Well thats good for Mark and you should use what he recomends if he is doing the work on your bike and thats good for me who uses progressives because I maybe the only one in this country doing so. Most tuners here will follow the party line and there are very few that even work on the PDS. The correct spring rate and very light preload settings were very important on the 03 shock with the top out spring. Many people over preloaded the too soft spring and overcame the top out spring. They would crank down the preload and wonder why the sag did not change. Its because the internal top out spring was compressing. And the shock would become harsh. The shock was also too long. Greater sag was needed on the 03's and the 04's. KTM tried to overcome the problem in 04 with straight rate springs (and also a change in piston) and finally did away with the top out spring on the 05 models. They stuck with the straight rates because they could not do another about face and the straight rates were cheaper to produce. Unfortunatley they also stuck with the more restrictive piston (which they used to provide more damping at the end of the stroke to prevent bottoming, a problem they created with the straight rate springs to some degree). They also increased the needle length but this was good because in the past it had mainly been used as a bottoming device. However the combination made the shock heavy on HS damping and caused it to really impact and kick on tree roots etc. They also sold more springs this way. WP (owned by KTM until about a month ago) still produce the progressives for sale. An excellant solution was to fit a progressive spring, change out the restrictive secondary piston, replace it with the primary piston and use a Race Tech Gold Valve in the primary pistons position. The 03's and 04's also had a third bushing in the fork. These were by far the worst offerings from KTM.
My '02 shock is quite possibly the best offering that KTM fitted to their EXC range. Two high flowing pistons, a progressive spring, a good size resorvair and no top out spring. Let down by a short needle which I replaced with a Terry Hay (now a Race Tech) telescopic needle and a revalve. I also did away with the heat producing resorvair piston and run a bladder for increased small bump compliance.
Interesting that on many KTM works bikes (see Ben Townley's World Championship bike if you get a chance) the shock is fitted with a double ended titanium progressive spring. The shock is quite different to the standard EXC shock though.
I'm not concerned with what springs you or your tuner choose to use but if you bring your shock to me to be setup I prefer the progressive springs, especially for those riders that ride sand and whoops.
The 08EXC's have a new longer shock and new swingarm to frame relationship. This results in a faster shock shaft speed and more progression due to the new frame shock and swingarm angle. And lighter damping on the secondary piston. With the increased rising rate the rear springs need to be a lot lighter and the whole system is by its nature more progressive. Its a step in the right direction. The old rising rate progression ratio was about 11%. The newer rising rate progression relationship is better but still not near the 30% progressive ratio of most linkage bikes (the early RMZ450 had a 36% rising rate and benefited from using a softer spring with more preload to help it feel less progressive).
With the KTM's a stiffer spring with less preload feels more progressive than a softer spring with more preload. The trick is using the correct spring and on the older pre '08 EXC's it was hard to get decent sag figures using a progressive spring once the rider reached about the 100kg range. A straight rate was better for most riders over 100kg.
Now with the added progression due to the new frame shock and swingarm its going to be harder to use progressives for the lighter riders, but this won't be a problem because the bikes still come under sprung for the majority and so its really only the guys that are under sprung and need a spring change that will benefit from the progressive springs. And the shock will still work better with whatever springs (within a range) because its more progressive anyway. And now the plus 100kg riders can benefit from the progressives. With the lighter guys on the '08 bikes some progression can be added to a straight rate spring by end conditioning the straight rate springs. I have not bothered doing this on the pre '08 models because they needed more progression than what this provided (they needed a progressive spring) but it might be worth persueing on the '08 models with their increased rising rate helping things along.
Now a word of warning. Before trying to adjust your sag on your '08 KTM, remove the shock and remove the spring. You may not be able to do this without a spring compressor. Spray the shock threads with a teflon based spray. KTM (and WP) in their ongoing wisdom decided to make the new shock body out of aluminium. The prelaod ring is also aluminium. This will result in galling and there have already been many instances of stripped threads on the shock body. Before trying to adjust the preload ring I strongly advise you to remove the spring. But you can't do this without adjusting the preload ring so if you get stuck bring it to me to set up your sag for you. Do not bring it to me once you have already stuffed up the threads on the shock body. Also with the new aluminium shock body and twin pistons expect service intervals to be shorter.
Also be sure to red locktite and torque correctly the shock bolts, especially the top one and keep an eye on it. Keep checking it. There are alot of case's of '08 top shock bolts working loose. Again probably the result of the torque applied during suspension movements.
Also I am aware of at least one shock shaft on an '08 KTM coming apart. The shaft nut came loose. The shock had never been apart. This resulted in a broken leg for the rider.
As for the forks? The WP forks have never needed just a little work to be great forks. They definately need more than a little work, but its not expensive to get them to work on par with the latest Twin Chamber forks. In fact I prefer them in many respects. But it takes more work than a shim shuffle and stock they are pretty harsh. Better on the four strokes that can push through the stiff valving but the two strokes suffer and both benefit from a working over. They have always been harsh in stock configuration. The quality of the finish is not as good as the Japanese suspension components, despite what many believe to be the superior quality of the KTM brand and hence the higher price.
I worked with the head suspension designer of the EXC suspension at the ISDE. He told me that the bushes in the WP forks were stuffed after about 12 hours due to the amount of carbon released during breakin. He was powerless and frustrated from trying to get WP to improve their quality. No customer would believe me if I told them they needed new bushes after breakin but you can see the carbon inpregnated in the bushes along with more metal than any other brand I have had apart. I don't bother trying to convince customers of this. But its the facts. Hopefully now that KTM no longer owns WP we might see some improvements to the WP quality filtering down.
And I would fit reduced offset triple clamps to any KTM before a steering damper. I have both, (I have stuffed hands) and recomend both but the reduced offset triple clamps will transform your KTM's front tyre grip and handling. The 07-08SX models have adjustable triple clamps. Hopefully they will trickle down to the EXC range in the next year or two.
I love the KTM's and I sure love my 200EXC. It will ride over anything without complaint.

[Ktmboy]

So what are your 300exec's like on the MX tracks or are they pretty much for farms amd forests. I'm pretty convinced I'll get another CR250 and enduro'ise it a bit to get the best of both worlds (or as close as comprimise as I can). FLy wheel weight and re valve etc.

I suppose its really comes down to the rider and the set up. Chris Birch seems to go alright around a MX track (even though he doesn't enjoy it too much) and he would probably put alot of top MX ers away on a 300.

I rode at the Thames Scambles the other weekend and had a great time and did pretty good in all classes. But saying that, the jumps were fairly small and if I was to race at say Kens place this weekend then I'd definitely adjust the settings.

Fully adjustable everything.

[Reckless]

By the way thanks Danger for giving so freely your advice etc that would have taken more than 5 mins to type. Learnt a lot about Ktm's there.

I very nearly bought an 04 Cr250r this arvo but it was a bit rough in a few places. I dunno just felt it wasn't a wise decision. Then I went to the Ktm shops to have a look. Sat on a 250 exec at amps and all the advice was that the exc would still do a stirling job at the MX tracks. They recommended a 250 for me. Then went to XXX Ktm on the way home and there was an 07 200exec. It just felt right to sit on. And Steve from there said it was his. Well he's about my weight and didn't have a problem with power or his weight when riding the bike.
I dunno I'm still learning and I'm still thinking of taking a step back (in cc and frame size) so I can take a step forward in skill. Rather than softening a Cr250 I'm a bit sold on getting some fat guy springs for a Ktm 200 and learning to ride the arse off it. What ever I buy will have to be modded for me I'm learning thats standard with MX bikes! Always allow another few hundy for suspension tuning. I don't think big cc's mean your fast, if anything they can be a hindrance to the learning curve.
I think I'll take up their offer of having a go on one at Ardmore one week.
Still a bit confused about what to aim for.

[dammad1]

And I would fit reduced offset triple clamps to any KTM before a steering damper. I have both, (I have stuffed hands) and recomend both but the reduced offset triple clamps will transform your KTM's front tyre grip and handling. The 07-08SX models have adjustable triple clamps. Hopefully they will trickle down to the EXC range in the next year or two.
I love the KTM's and I sure love my 200EXC. It will ride over anything without complaint.

I have heard of the more serious racers playing around with the offset, but to be honest the front end grip of the 08 seems really good, but maybe thats just me not pushing it to the limit on the corners.

Really the only complaint I have is the forks being to harsh on the hard pack and it tends to beat me to death, but the bike tracks perfect, goes where I point it, handles the jumps and big hits nicely.

The other day Mark changed the shims around and added an extra one and we also gave it a bit more peload, but this was just a quick mod to get some improvement and I will likely chuck in a tech suspension piston kit and some new springs at a later date.

[warewolf]

snip very useful analysis of KTM suspension

Thanks for that Danger, very helpful.

[Danger]

Just seen this photo taken of an '08 works KTM in Italy this Thursday. I think it is Max Nagl's MX1 bike. Note the progressive spring and new perimeter frame. They haven't even tried to hide the fact they are using a progressive spring like they usually do by distributing the closer coils at both ends of the spring and keeping it gray (usually a titanium spring on the works bikes). This looks like its just your usual off the shelf progressive WP spring.
There are also shots of a new aluminium frame. And more persistant rumours of a linkage bike in 2010. Although these rumours have been circulating for years it seems they are more predominant this year. I don't mind if they put a linkage on the MX bikes but I hope they persist with the PDS on the off road bikes. And keep the steel frame.

[dammad1]

Just seen this photo taken of an '08 works KTM in Italy this Thursday. I think it is Max Nagl's MX1 bike. Note the progressive spring and new perimeter frame. They haven't even tried to hide the fact they are using a progressive spring like they usually do by distributing the closer coils at both ends of the spring and keeping it gray (usually a titanium spring on the works bikes). This looks like its just your usual off the shelf progressive WP spring.
There are also shots of a new aluminium frame. And more persistant rumours of a linkage bike in 2010. Although these rumours have been circulating for years it seems they are more predominant this year. I don't mind if they put a linkage on the MX bikes but I hope they persist with the PDS on the off road bikes. And keep the steel frame.

Yeah i've heard alot of the same rumours, I don't think they need to change to linkages for the off road bikes (look at all the titles they take every year with the current setup), but I think they are keen to win more titles on the MX & SX scene and some people say that they will need to go to linkages to do this. As for the Aluminium frame i've read alot of forums with people arguing the pros and cons with each, but most of the old school guys believe that the aluminium frames are inferior to the traditional steel frames. What's your take on this Danger? I always liked the look of the aluminium frames but i'm starting to wonder about thier merits.

[scott411]

i think alloy frames are like usd forks, people have made more about them than there actually performance, just cause they work for bubba and rc in supercross do not make them better for the average rider

[Danger]

The main reason the Japanese have gone to alloy frames is because it is cheaper and there is a shortage of steel in Asia. My understanding is the current steel KTM frames are lighter than most if not all the alloy frames on the Japanese bikes. The alloy frames do look better though (the Yamaha's were looking dated before going alloy) although the KTM is probably still one of the better looking bikes to me.
Steel does have some better shock and buzz absorbing properties. Note that Kawasaki has had to take some measures to create a more forgiving feel in their alloy frames for cornering according to their marketing department.

[scott411]

your right danger, Honda took rigidity out of the CR series for a while, the first 97 cr250's were known as jack hammers,

best thing about alloy is that it does not look old quick, (great for us dealers making used bikes look good again)

Danger, do you get racer x, thier is an article with a guy that has made a new design in forks, they are both usd and convetional, and have 2 sets of valving, apprantly much better in mutliple bumps, look trick, would love to have a ride on them

[Danger]

No I do not get Racer X. Got it once in the hospital shop at Middlemore of all places and it was a damn fine read but can't seem to find anyone that stocks it locally.
But I have seen the pictures of the forks that you describe. I was not sure if they were real or a photo shop but you see a lot of ideas that never end up going anywhere.

[dammad1]

The main reason the Japanese have gone to alloy frames is because it is cheaper and there is a shortage of steel in Asia. My understanding is the current steel KTM frames are lighter than most if not all the alloy frames on the Japanese bikes. The alloy frames do look better though (the Yamaha's were looking dated before going alloy) although the KTM is probably still one of the better looking bikes to me.
Steel does have some better shock and buzz absorbing properties. Note that Kawasaki has had to take some measures to create a more forgiving feel in their alloy frames for cornering according to their marketing department.

Yeah that is exactly what I have read elsewhere, but of course thier is alot of people that dont want to believe that.